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Post by dwayanu on Jan 30, 2023 13:45:02 GMT -5
As of my checking today, Deluxe T&T appears to be out of stock at Flying Buffalo (which oddly offers the MSPE hardback for the same $19.99 as paperback). There’s a French translation POD from Lulu, but otherwise I’ve found no in-print edition of T&T or Monsters! Monsters!.
(Meanwhile, Steve Jackson Games has replaced the already nosebleed $120 reissue of The Fantasy Trip with a $200 set.)
I don’t think I’m terribly eccentric in seeing PDF-only distribution as not sufficient for success. Besides cutting out brick and mortar retailers — which provide visibility, sometimes including tables for play — I think it cuts out a lot of people for whom physical books are part of the pleasure.
Somebody a while ago mentioned the possibility of creating basically a retro-clone. (The “funny spell names” would be an obvious point of incompatibility, but even the Corgi edition changed some of those.)
Is that something to consider seriously at this point, or does it seem too likely to spoil the prospect for T&T proper?
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Jan 30, 2023 15:08:31 GMT -5
It's (a retro clone or T&T alike) been talked about a few times. Monsters! Monsters! might be an alternative Tunnels and Trolls alike but I haven't looked into it too much (besides backing it for the kickstarter). At some point I will self print/bind the Monsters! Monsters! book into a tome and delve deeper.
I've toyed myself with developing a rules lite fast to play T&T style variant game with slightly different way of doing things.
First off the player would generate the dice and the weapons apply the adds if you win the combat round. This makes armour vital for every combatant. No spite - that mechanic is replaced by imploding (subtract a D6 for every 1 rolled) and exploding (add a D6 for every 6 rolled). Armour might have its own hits value (with a maximum damage value that it can stop in a round) so whilst you might not hurt the squishy bits underneath eventually it will fall to bits.
Next the spells would require a roll for success/failure/very bad failure/very high success and everywhere in the middle. I discuss this in the Chaos Magic portion of our play by post game. Adds a little... danger to spell casting (not just for the caster - your level 1 TTYF! equivalent might blow a house size hole in a Dragon, much to everyone's surprise).
Clerics/Paladins/Healers would be introduced. Rogues would get a wider ranger of special abilities. At the moment they can sort of fight, sort of cast spells but aren't great at either.
Saving Rolls (or equivalent) would be different. The target number would be randomly generated and you might get lucky or not when the GM cooks up a target number. For example a L1SR (Target Number 20) would be generated on 4D6+6 with a 1 or 6 indicating an imploding (1) or exploding (6) die generating a range from -14 to 54 and probably somewhere in between.
Monsters would become Creatures with Creature Feature special abilities, activated by rolling a certain number of multiple results.
Example:
An Orc might have a creature feature activated by multiple fives. Lets say they attack with 2,3,1,5,5,5,6. That's three multiples of 5 which activates the ability 'Berserk' and doubles weapon adds that round.
Got some other ideas but all of these amount to house rules of a kind. Like you say the big work would be spells and distancing from the IP of the parent game. Whether any of these rules sound playable or any good is down to personal choice. One thing I would come up with (for sure) is another way to do missile combat (shudder). Some might think Missile combat is ok, I always disliked it, YMMV and so on.
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 30, 2023 17:25:30 GMT -5
Since we’re talking about variants, I’ve never quite got the groove for what the change to armor (further exaggerated in Fifth Edition) does to combat. The original “extra hit points” approach is simple, keeps every round (except an actual tie) moving toward a conclusion, and gives Warriors something on which to spend loot.
Another aspect is that, with Constitution 10, for example 15 points of armor gives you 2.5 times the durability (an easy thing to eyeball). At higher levels it’s not such a big difference, whether because you have a higher CON or because you’re taking less damage.
The drawback is that to many (most?) people, “using up” armor so quickly seems too unrealistic, so if someone has a good alternative that’s something of interest. A compromise I’ve found sometimes acceptable is restoring points with a rest between fights, rationalized as adjusting straps and such as well as catching your breath and cooling off.
There are also issues of dealing with missiles and with TTYF, but I think those present issues anyhow.
One thing I’ve tried with missiles is dropping the SR in favor of just tossing dice and adds, then deducting a value derived from range and target size. At close range, you not only have a better chance of scoring any damage, but are likely to do more damage when you hit.
Under 5E rules, high-DEX archers are to my mind overpowered (while even people at the high end of ‘normal’ ability scores are too rarely effective).
I like to include only LK adds (STR and DEX being reflected in wielding a weapon that requires higher scores). The target’s LK gives negative adds, which calls for a way to determine that for MR rated critters.
For SRs, one can toss DARO as well for addition to a base target number. E.g., since the average toss is roughly 8, base 10 is just a couple of points easier than a standard L1SR.
With this approach, there’s no need for a minimum 5+ toss for success. You can have a greater than 89% chance without ever reaching 100%.
I think CHA improvement ought to be reversed, a x2 bonus instead of x1/2. As matters stand, it’s over priced and darned hard to get up to the levels the rules stipulate as wielding impressive influence.
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 30, 2023 17:53:23 GMT -5
Regarding MR, 2d-2 (simply treating a 6 on a die as 0) gives an average of 5. If MR is in increments of 5, you get an average HPT exactly equal to MR (easier than needing to calculate it when you’re planning encounters).
I like how keeping it constant instead of recalculating speeds up play along with removing the “death spiral” (which seems like drawing things out when the outcome is no longer an interestingly live issue).
Of course this taken straight means more dice to toss. MR 100 goes from 11 to 40! However, it’s not a big difference in practical results if the GM chooses to shift some into adds, e.g., 10d+75.
Some might even prefer to use the MR straight as HPT, finding that the players’ dice tossing gives enough random variation.
This also means you end up with higher average HPTs, standard MR 100 for example being 11d6+50 for an average of 88.5. Since we’re going in 5 MR increments, we can have a conversion table that’s approximate (but good enough for how loose the whole affair of ‘balance’ is in T&T anyhow).
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 6, 2023 12:54:56 GMT -5
Talk of variants may have terminally derailed this thread. If we were to undertake a retro-clone, I presume the aim would be as much compatibility as feasible.
The real question anyhow was whether that’s become desirable in the first place.
As the thread title indicates, what really concerns me is having T&T available in print (and I don’t think the second hand market is enough).
It would be even better to have it in brick and mortar retail, but that’s probably for an already established publisher. Ideally that would be Flying Buffalo, but the firm seems to be in disarray. Maybe licensing would be the best solution, if for example Crompton and friends were to step up.
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 530
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Post by mosker on Feb 6, 2023 13:03:31 GMT -5
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 414
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Post by sscrompton on Feb 8, 2023 13:59:04 GMT -5
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 15, 2023 14:40:06 GMT -5
That’s nice to know! Is it regularly stocked? I wonder why you’re not using POD fulfillment via, e.g., DrivethruRPG (where you’re already offering PDFs) or Lulu.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Feb 16, 2023 19:37:15 GMT -5
Since we’re talking about variants, I’ve never quite got the groove for what the change to armor (further exaggerated in Fifth Edition) does to combat. The original “extra hit points” approach is simple, keeps every round (except an actual tie) moving toward a conclusion, and gives Warriors something on which to spend loot. knowing guys who have worn the same armor for over a decade, averaging 8-10 hours of wear per week, being hit for about ½-2 hours a week, with only minor repairs... .. yeah it's bloody great antiverisimilitudinous unrealistic and simple. I'd rather see spite do armor damage than direct to HP. It's still unrealistically high, as an hour of combat almost never does damage to Wiesby (lamellar, but on the inside of the leather and outside the gamebeson), chain, or harnessed plates (plates connected by straps, rather than articulated to each other). The 5th+ damage soak makes armor vital. (adding armor to MR critters is either genius or a D...-move, depending upon who one asks. (I count it as double its stopping power added to MR for XP. To the OPLet's face it, electronic pub is the easiest way to get product out the door. It would be great if they'd set PoD availability... but note that PoD generally isn't as durable. As Mongoose found out, the very hard way... (major replacements when they went to internal PoD.) And as for Retroclones? Not a good thing for the brand, TBH. Hell, Hogscape's "T&T6" was well executed, but a major step away from 5th, and a different direction from T&T 7. A couple other "6th ed" fansets came out, too... during the dark times, between 5th stock running out and 5.5 being released. The thing is, not a one of them is really a retroclone in the sense used in the early days of the OGL... none of them do "just the same process with different words." All of them, including mine, really should be called Pseudoclones (the term dates back to before 2004, and wasn't my invention, but I'm apparently the last proponent of the distinction). They take a large part from the original, but alter the processes a bit... They're not trying for cloning the original, but for cloning the played house-rules As for other flavors of the T&T system... - T&T 1-4e are, AFAIK and AFAICT, mostly the same, but with ever improving layout. I have the 1e reprint PDF.
- There are Games Workshop reprints, which I've only seen cover art for...
- T&T 5.0 is the 1979 masterpiece
- T&T 5.Corgi is Corgi Books' relayout and minor changes version of 5.5 - most notably, the spell names are made less silly.
- T&T 5.Corgi.Light is a fast-play subset of 5.Corgi. It was included in several of the Corgi editions of the solos.
- T&T 5.Japanese is a VERY different looking, Japanese-only, rules explained in manga-like pages super treat.... if one reads Japanese. I kind of know how, but lack the vocabulary to do so. (Japanese makes Russian look easy. Hell, it makes ASL look easy.) There is a translkated minirules
- T&T 5.5 is 5.0+ staff appendices. One is a timeline of trollworld. One is currency of Trollworld. One is a reduced subset and streamlining of the MSPE skill system. One is Ken's House Rules (Spite, TARO on att rolls, adding a Power stat and using the optional Speed stat. A couple other bits that I can't recall)
- T&T 7.0 Change from level gives attribute raises to attribute raises determine level. This is much more fair for using SR=PC Level (easier for low, levels, harder for high), adds Speed and Wiz formally, adds specialists (based upon getting triples), and citizens. It also adds a Wiz vs Wiz check to see if the spell can be cast... It also adds the talent system. In this version, it's treated as a special attribute.
- 7.0.Alternate is a different game engine, derived from 7.0. It's fun, but feels fairly different.
- 7.5 is 7.0, but with the talent changed to a modifier to whichever attribute is used, rather than a separate one. It also gives Rogues a "roguery" talent as part of the class features... and implies Fiery Dragon were thinking Rogue to be Rapscallion/thief/bard instead of Rogue-Wizard
- Deluxe is essentially 7.75... it adds more specialist types, schools of magic, and loads of setting for Trollworld.
- There are some Spanish language supplements, too...
T&T computer game: it's derived from 5th, but uses a somewhat different combat approach; It's worth discussing in a different thread, but it works quite well, and otherwise is super faithful to 5.0 - M!M! 1e - Typewritten, 8.5×11. Very nice. T&T 4 compatible (so damages of weapons are off by a die). Essentially, Monster is its own type.
- M!M! 1.1e edited and Laid out by Steve Jackson (US SJ, now owner of SJG) Mostly typo slaying and better layout.
- M!M! 2.0e Last FBI version. Compatible with DT&T, noting the slight difference for MR's ending in 0... very trivial differences. Steve Crompton has noted plans to revise, and soon, so a reprint isn't warranted yet. IIRC (I'm not checking) character level is also unarmed dice...
- M!M! "mini-rules" in Monsterary of Zimrala.
- MSPE 1E - FBI edition. Major differences - SR's not level based, but direct TNs set. Advancement is level based as in 1e-5e T&T, but it's always 2 points of attribute... It adds a skills system - each use of a skill earns AP for that skill... but new skill slots can be gained by raising IQ, or can be assigned to level a skill up.
- MSPE 1.1 - some pages are different content.
- MSPE 2 (2019) Kickstarter version. Direct reprint, but adding the different pages from both.
A couple other spinoffs exist... some licensed, some not. - Starfaring: Ken's quirky space opera variant from the early years. Unintelligible if one doesn't know T&T, IMO. (I got the reprint before I knew it was unauthorized; the current PDF is authorized)
- Wizardy and Warriors: 3rd party add-on for 1e-5e, altering equipment, adding types and races. Only know of it.
- New Khazan - 3rd party add-on for 7/7.5. Lots of sci-fi stuff. May be unauthorized
- Gamma Trollworld - Standalone 7.5 variant, dubious legitimacy, but looks quite fun. May be unauthorized, not sure.
If anyone has a spare of 5.Corgi, mine was stolen years ago...
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Feb 18, 2023 12:13:12 GMT -5
Great list Aramis of Erak , just missing Power Trip which uses much of the T&T rules set but for Supers. That said it's not very good. There's the seed of an idea in there but stats like 14,000 Strength for one of the example characters make no sense. Might be worth putting the list you put in as a sticky somewhere for newcomers to the site (or anyone else) who wants a quick read up about T&T and how it got to where it is now...
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dungeondevil
3rd Level Troll
Give me grain and I'll give you guns!
Posts: 174
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Post by dungeondevil on Feb 18, 2023 19:57:18 GMT -5
I've got some Corgi T&T paperbacks on my ebay shop. PM for details.
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 18, 2023 23:17:40 GMT -5
I don’t expect or desire ‘realism’ from T&T; the fetish for stats for umpteen different daggers, etc., actually gets silly with 12-pound broadswords and 120-pound suits of mail.
A funny thing though is that Marc Miller’s Traveller 5 — arguably the most ‘gearhead’ version of the game — uses the abstraction of armor becoming ineffective for the rest of the engagement after the first penetration.
Returning to T&T, if armor points are worn away but returned with a turn of rest, I can rationalize that as a combination of fatigue and straps and whatnot needing adjustment. That doesn’t give the money sink, but it keeps the simple default melee system working.
Missiles call for some adjustment because by standard rules the damage delivered is so off the scale of HTH. It’s a small chance of ‘nuking’ a target — until your DEX is high enough, then it becomes nigh automatic insta-kill. TTYF tends to become that sooner, and more reliably (no dice involved).
But I do get theoretically the standard formalism and creative use of SRs, and I haven’t heard complaints from players. I just don’t feel like I really swing the jazz; it’s like I’m wobbling on a tightrope, just barely keeping it really a game for the players.
Whereas with D&D I can pretty much just set up a situation and then let the dice fall as they may. There’s occasional call for rulings that make some difference, but not the pervasive sense that “everything is broken, that’s how the light gets in.”
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 19, 2023 0:26:11 GMT -5
Back on main topic, I’m delighted to hear that M!M! is slated for a print run after revision.
Questions: A) What’s the ETA? Next quarter? Vaguely sometime this year? B) What spell levels does it / will it cover?
Long ago I had the old FB edition, and if memory serves that seemed to me to top out too early. Judiciously selected examples from higher levels would be nice, the better to inform creations in a campaign.
I’m still scratching my head as to what’s up with the new Flying Buffalo. Another Question: C) Do the PDFs include permission to print a hard copy?
Explicit permission in the front matter (as in Fate Core) would be helpful if a print shop has scruples. I don’t know how many folks would want to go to the expense in the first place, but …
First edition might seem to some obsolete, but I reckon it’s quite playable and as proper T&T as is Deluxe — and it comes to only 43 pages.
It’s probably not very pretty to eyes that have never even seen a typewriter in operation, but the current price of $2.95 seems reasonable for just dipping in toes — deeper than the free rules provide for — to see how much they like the game.
More players, some becoming GMs, can prime the pump for when proper books become available again.
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 414
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Post by sscrompton on Apr 16, 2023 12:02:09 GMT -5
We have seven copies of dT&T left (plus a 5th edition T&T) and we just put them online if any of you still need a copy! MonstersMonsters.org is now live! see what we are up to and visit the new site. NOTE: We now have an online store where you can buy our products direct from us! Right now we have some new, cool and very rare items that any fan of Ken's rpgs will want to have! Supplies on some of these items are very limited... Take a look while we still have them... monstersmonsters.org/shop/
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dungeondevil
3rd Level Troll
Give me grain and I'll give you guns!
Posts: 174
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Post by dungeondevil on Apr 27, 2023 19:52:14 GMT -5
dT&T core rulebook hardcover now out of stock.
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