uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
|
Post by uburoi on Dec 22, 2007 9:52:56 GMT -5
Oh, BTW - on-topic: Buffalo Castle can be a deathtrap, too, particularly for 1st-level delvers and if you roll really bad on that Wandering Monster chart. Seems kind of sadistic to me to be including editions of it with the boxed set, but then, given what I've seen of the Trollgod's GMing style, that may be intentional...
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Dec 22, 2007 11:57:57 GMT -5
Oh, BTW - on-topic: Buffalo Castle can be a deathtrap, too, particularly for 1st-level delvers and if you roll really bad on that Wandering Monster chart. I think, and I could be wrong here, that Buffalo Castle was created for earlier editions of T&T, and never got re-vamped to fit the 5th ed. playing rules. Specifically, monsters: In earlier T&T editions, Monsters got 1/2 their MR in adds on the first combat round only; they received only 1/4 their MR in combat adds on second and subsequent rounds. (Source: T&T5e Sec. 1.6--Creating Monsters) That simple adjustment takes a lot of the bite out of that stupid Octopus (which kills me every time), and scales down every monster in the WM list. Of course, with the Giant and Blood Bats (and Octopus!), this still doesn't matter much! But with the rest of the monsters on the list, using the older MR rules turns the game from a deathtrap to fairly well-balanced adventure... and a fun one, too! Unfortunately, the problem with combat/solos/combat in solos still remains... if you are powerful enough to beat the monster, then you'll kill it easily. If you are not, then you'll die (shouldn't there at least be a RUN option?). Using the older MR rules makes them problem feel solved... if the MR is set about right, the monster will get hits on you in the first round, but you'll kill it in the next rounds following. It makes it feel like the combat is wavering back and forth, even though it's really not.
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Dec 22, 2007 12:13:05 GMT -5
and that was mainly due to her all-20 stats she got in DED. Grrrr. I hated that sort of stuff in the solo mods... that was the main reason I played D&D; nothing worse than having a cool, crafted character that you love and are proud of, then sending him/her through a solo and suddenly they are nothing like the character you started with. Especially the above example, where they have no personality at all anymore! Having all 20 is like having all 10, but higher. How do you play a character that has no defining characteristics? Luckily, later solos (like Blue Frog Tavern, etc.) came out and showed me that it's possible to have intelligent game design and gameplay in T&T... but that stuff almost caused me to jump ship!
|
|
|
Post by Mhegrrrim Skulltosser on Dec 23, 2007 16:25:52 GMT -5
Heheheh I hear ya Fenris Wulf. A successful run through DeathTrap Equalizer made all characters look the same. I was left to defining characters through the weapons they carry. ("I'm the guy with the boomerang").
Buffalo Castle was always a good primer adventure. As long as you avoided the octopus and did not roll Bees or Bats a L1 character could survive with a +1d6 attribute and if lucky a ×2 attribute as well.
What I found interesting was the comment about MR. If earlier editions used ×1/4 adds after round 1, then why recommend that all MR be increased by +10? That adds difference really had an impact.
Up to now, I have assumed that was due to the +1d increase of all weapons when T&T5 came out. Now? I wonder if it wasn't just to kill more characters.
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Dec 23, 2007 19:05:37 GMT -5
What I found interesting was the comment about MR. If earlier editions used ×1/4 adds after round 1, then why recommend that all MR be increased by +10? That adds difference really had an impact. Up to now, I have assumed that was due to the +1d increase of all weapons when T&T5 came out. Now? I wonder if it wasn't just to kill more characters. I've seen the notation to increase MR on monsters in other solo books ( Labyrinth immediately comes to mind, for some reason), but I don't recall that notation in the Buffalo Castle gamebook. Of course, to be fair, my copies of Buffalo Castle are the old "yellow cover" versions... that note might be in later editions? (My copy of Labyrinth is the later full-color cover, so I may be on to something there). As I noted in the first reply, I really don't know if I'm right about the MR issue. I have always thought that most MRs in the solos were a bit too high if you were playing a Warrior, because "spite damage" wasn't established back then (which is pretty much the only way to win solo combat). Using the earlier edition MR rules (1/2 MR in adds on first round, 1/4 MR in adds each round thereafter) solved the problem for me, anyway. If I could survive the first round, I'd usually beat 'em each round after that until I won. I found it to be an emotionally satisfying experience ("eh, so you think you're tuff, eh? well, I'll show ya tuff, ya dirty stinkin' monster!") ;D
|
|
|
Post by zanshin on Dec 24, 2007 5:06:37 GMT -5
The octopus isnt too bad, if you inflict enough hits round 1 then its only adding 10 Mr /turn; but once you start losing to it , you really start losing to it.
If i didnt like solo outcomes i change it - in DED for instance i changed that para to all your stats become averaged rather than 20, in BSP i changed 7A from +7 to all stats to +1 to all stats , otherwise the rest of the marathon is no challenge.
I also didnt like the pool of greatness in Naked Doom - it just made the characters ridiculous. Ok for Balrog battling but otherwise OTT.
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Dec 24, 2007 8:44:09 GMT -5
If i didnt like solo outcomes i change it - in DED for instance i changed that para to all your stats become averaged rather than 20, in BSP i changed 7A from +7 to all stats to +1 to all stats , otherwise the rest of the marathon is no challenge. A true T&T'er! If you don't like it, change it! Perfect! Although I haven't mentioned it before now, I also changed that kind of stuff, although I changed it a little more drastically: I assume that magic that affects character attributes is generally temporary in effect (think Double Double, for example), and magic that lasts "forever" is some pretty powerful stuff... and therefore, quite likely rare. The practical upshot is that magic that alters my characters stats in the games is considered "temporary." It lasts only as long as the adventure, then by the time my character is ready to adventure again, the magic has worn off and he (or she) is back to "normal." This applies to both benefits and penalities... if my DEX is doubled in a solo, that spell "wears off" just the same as one that halved my CHR. Items bug me less, so as long as I don't run through an adventure multiple times collecting all the good loot (because I know the steps to get there), then I don't worry about that overmuch. As they say, if you're gonna cheat, why cheat only halfway? If I know where the good stuff is, why bother going through the adventure at all? Just say I got it and go on with the game. ;D
|
|
|
Post by zanshin on Dec 24, 2007 11:36:58 GMT -5
Now thats thinking!
I really liked having my stats enhanced, but had a sense of 'fairness' about what seemed right . But your way of handling it makes a lot of sense.
Fenris , i exalt you for this , and many other good ideas.
|
|
order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
|
Post by order99 on Dec 24, 2007 14:18:45 GMT -5
Oddly enough, this is the same approach Mike Stackpole recommends in MS&PE (the chapter is entitled "Tunnels & Thompsons") when wrting about Crossover Fantasy play.
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Dec 25, 2007 9:15:06 GMT -5
Thank you very much, Zanshin! Your comments are very appreciated!
|
|
|
Post by castiglione on Mar 26, 2008 13:02:35 GMT -5
The thing to consider about Buffalo Castle - it was really designed for the early edition of the rules. Early re-printings advised adding 10 to all the MR's to account for the extra damage that weapons did in the 5th edition. However, this advisory was later omitted in future printings; apparently, someone discovered that adding 10 to all the MR's had a SIGNIFICANT impact due to differences in how dice and adds of monsters were determined between the early editions and the 5th editions.
As for the solos not giving enough combat options, you have to remember that these were written a LONG time ago (Buffalo Castle was the first "choose your own adventure" type book...EVER) and that the "technology" has improved over the years. Later adventures often gave you an option to at least run away if you stumbled onto a hopeless fight.
What I'm sorry about is that there was an article written in issue #5 of Sorcerer's Apprentice which gave a whole bunch of ideas on how to expand your options in solos, stuff that would have pushed the envelope in solo design. One of these was a matrix of "standard" options, i.e. stuff you would normally do in any situation, i.e. search for hidden doors, search for hidden traps, etc. You basically wrote down which of these standard options you wanted to try and refered to the matrix. You also had to roll for a wandering monster for each option you wanted to do (so you couldn't just sit there at every paragraph and go through EVERY standard option...at least not without possible repercussions).
The same sort of "standard" options could probably be applied to combat situations - you could have a list of standard options in combat like: attempt to run away, attempt to disarm, grapple (a good grappling example in T & T is given in M! M!), attempt to dodge and hit, attempt to surrender and beg for mercy (always a good option when you know you're beat), attempt to distract, etc. Just a matrix where you cross-reference these standard combat options with an encounter number (paragraph number) and see what happens. Of course, each option has to have a downside and an upside (if you fail your saving roll when running away, the bad guy will probably get a free shot at you, if you attempt to grapple, you might get skewered as you charge in, if you attempt to dodge, you might trip over your feet and fall over, etc.)
Anyway, all of this was discussed in an article back in 1979 but I've never seen them actually make their way into a solo except the object matrix in Amulet of the Salkti might be considered a variation on that idea.
Another thing to consider is that the "state of the art" for what makes a "good" adventure has advanced; there's a TFT derived game in which a number of solitaire adventures have been published and on their website, they give some good bits of advice on adventure writing for prospective writers - basically, for every encounter, allow the players AT LEAST three ways of dealing with it: 1) Fighting, 2) Running, 3) Negotiating. This seems obvious but back in the early days of T & T solos, there were a lot of "fight or die" encounters. The negotiating also allows a character's CHR to come into play; if you're not a good fighter or if you're on your last legs, it might help if you're incredibly charming.
|
|
|
Post by zanshin on Mar 26, 2008 14:41:07 GMT -5
Thats really interesting castiglione ; not that i want to tempt people away from T&T, but do you have a link for the TFT site?
|
|
|
Post by castiglione on Mar 26, 2008 16:29:00 GMT -5
It's a version of TFT-lite. www.darkcitygames.comThere's a link on their site to guidelines for writing adventures for their company. Their adventures also use what they call "plot words" which are basically YES/NO flags; the instructions in the adventure tell you to write down that word and there's a possibility that it'll later come up again in the adventure. Basically, they're used to indicate whether certain events have been triggered, etc. The company is basically a "labor of love" of a few TFT fanatics. I thought their writing guidelines were pretty good in terms of advice on how to put together a programmed solitaire adventure.
|
|
|
Post by zanshin on Mar 26, 2008 18:52:41 GMT -5
Thanks for that.Have an exalt!
|
|
|
Post by castiglione on Mar 26, 2008 19:49:20 GMT -5
w00t! BTW - off-topic but...what's "TARO"?
|
|