Am i breaking any copyright laws?

[skathros]

Can i use "MR" or "Dice+Adds" withought infringing any copyright laws?

Seeing what the OSRIC crowd are doing to produce in-print material for O/A D&D has me wondering if a similar approach can be used for T&T.

[Vin Ahrr Vin]

You could use PR for "Power Rating" and DNA for "Dice'n'Adds".

Just a thought.

[nutjob]

copyright link

if you read the document at the above link, you'll see that short phrases are not protected by copyright law. "MR" and "Dice+Adds" are obviously short enough not to be protected.

you might also want to read the documents at the following links:

plagiarism link

infringement link

[gwindel]

Words are only protectable if they are brand names or trademarks. So you can not use "T&T" without permission, but dice+adds and monster rating is not possible to protect.

[khaydhaik]

As I understand this intellectual properties rights stuff, and believe me, I've studied it as much as one can without going to law school, the phrase T&T is not possible to protect, either, except as a trademark. Same for the phrase "Tunnels and Trolls".

I noticed with the Hobbit Hole magazine issue #7 (and possibly others before it, but I'm looking at 7 right now), there is no mention of T&T or Tunnels and Trolls on the outside covers. That is, Jim is not branding the magazine with the T&T or "Tunnels and Trolls" trademark. So, while the magazine is devoted to T&T, it's not violating the trademark laws -- from what I can surmise (not being a lawyer, mind you).

I don't think it's violating any copyright laws, either. I don't think it can be considered a "derivative" work -- it's original material, even if it is intended for use with T&T. You can't very well argue that using some of the same words or phrases or even abbreviations is "derivative". Just because you make mention of MR or SR or STR or WIZ doesn't make you a "derivative" work. If that were the case, then T&T would be a derivative of D&D -- they both mention "characters" and "monsters" and "combat" and "attributes" and "spells" and they both share some common attribute names, and they both use "gp", "sp", and "cp" as abbreviations for money. They both mention some of the same weapons.

Not being a lawyer, I don't know where the line is drawn between something that is similar in nature and something derivative. I don't think any lawyer can even tell you for sure in some cases -- such cases would have to go to court and be tried before anyone would know for sure.

The trick is to minimize the risk that you'll be taken to court, and then to maximize your chances of walking out of the courtroom with your assets intact if you are taken to court. I think that the Hobbit Hole has taken some reasonable precautions in that regard. I think that anyone else that wanted to publish T&T materials could do so without much risk if you just don't brand your product as T&T or Tunnels and Trolls.

Jim also has a statement inside HH#7 indicating that he is not affiliated with FBI, and that the work is not intended as an infringement. Whether that statement would help him in a court of law, I don't know.

Jim markets the Hobbit Hole as a T&T magazine. That might work against him if he were taken to court for infringement. But, again, I'm not a lawyer, and so I can only guess at these things.

After looking at the OSRIC stuff, I'm wondering if we couldn't just come up with a label under which we publish T&T material. The T&T community would know when they see this label that the material is for T&T, but nowhere in the product would it actually say T&T or Tunnels and Trolls. How about this for a label:

Tx2

(That's T times 2.)

That should avoid any trademark issues, at least. Copyright issues would still be a concern. For instance, I don't know how careful you'd have to be about using published names of spells. Using one or two in a work probably wouldn't be enough to make it a "derivative" work. But using several of them might be risky. Certainly copying relatively large chunks of text verbatim from the rulebook would be a no-no.

Let me reiterate again that I am not a lawyer. If you decide to do anything risky, you probably should consult a lawyer first... I wonder if Jim talked to a lawyer about what he's doing with the Hobbit Hole...

[skathros]

Oh, but i would never consider doing anything risky or (for that matter) illegal. Skathros only fears one thing, and that's Mrs. Skathros' wrath. If i get embroiled in legal troubles, believe you me...Mrs. Skathros' wrath will manifest itself

The thought simply began to ferment in my mind after taking a look at OSRIC. I figured "Hey, if it can breath life into a game that is by and large "dead", couldn't the same be done for a game that is by and large unsupported to the point of being dead?".

[khaydhaik]

I've been in communication with Jim at the Hobbit Hole since I wrote the above, and what I intend to do at this point is to submit any T&T materials that I want published to Jim. Anyone else that is interested in publishing T&T materials should contact Jim as well. He's registered on this board as shipy. Just look him up in the members list and send him a message if you're interested.

[quoghmyre]

A few thoughts on Copyright,
I'm not from the U.S. so your law don't apply to me:-) but we have our own laws and they do:-(
I don't mind sailing close to the wind on this issue, remember the law was designed to limit ownership not extend it. In non T&T related publishing I've been told to remove stuff from my web site because I was in breach of copyright, and I have. The guy with the deepest pockets wins.
I think if FRPGs was brand new T&T was released now the D&D lads would have skinned FBI alive. I've read 2 interviews with Ken where it says that T&T was based on/from the idea of/tried fix the flaws in/ D&D.
Personally I think there were parts that FBI were told not to reprint and v7 is a Rules Lawyers version. Improved or not they are different because WoC hold rights to stuff that was in v5 but not in v7.
So what to do? If it for personal use, just do it. Deal with the photocopier Police when they kick down your door. Host your download sites in Russia. If you want to get rich of some else's idea, go for it, but don't be surprised if one day some lawyer comes and takes it all off you, it's a gamble, just like a casino.
But is it right? is it lawful? it's only those who don't have high priced Lawyers at there call that ask this question. The rest just do it and let the lawyers and their deep pockets carry the day.
What to do if you get a Cease and Desist, note? Tell them to get a Lawyer to send you a letter, once you get one stop it. If they don't want to pay for a lawyer to defend there rights, do they have any?
Arrrhhhhhh

[eagle]

Hi,

If you will type in copyright on a search engine, one of the
links will be to the government information sight on copyright.
There you will find an artical on the basics of copyright.

There is also a government websight on trademarks.
That is rather complicated. On this sight you will find
what is called a TESS serach engine which is a basic
search on trademarks.

Also check out www.legalzome.com

I hoped this has helped.

James