Deal Breakers(?)

[stormcrow]

Doing a bit more research on T&T, there are three things I dislike, to the point that they might put me off playing the game. 

1. No individual turns in combat so no "spotlight" for a character (i.e. no time to shine) 
2. Wiz is a complete dump stat for Warriors
3. Missile attack / damage looks confusing, and (I read elsewhere on these forums) possibly broken

I have a fourth which is more of a question. Why have a different mechanic for missile attacks? 

[ProfGremlin]

Oct 22, 2019 4:55:31 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

Doing a bit more research on T&T, there are three things I dislike, to the point that they might put me off playing the game. 

1. No individual turns in combat so no "spotlight" for a character (i.e. no time to shine) 
2. Wiz is a complete dump stat for Warriors
3. Missile attack / damage looks confusing, and (I read elsewhere on these forums) possibly broken

I have a fourth which is more of a question. Why have a different mechanic for missile attacks? 

Hey, stormcrow, I have some quick thoughts I can offer over breakfast:

1) It's your game. Use the existing combat mechanic and simply break the melee into smaller pieces. If that's 1:1 or 1:2, 1:3 then that's the melee.
1a) Don't forget the usage of stunts. Melee combat as written is boring. Stunts, ah, stunts are the spice of a derring-do life!
1b) there are multiple threads in the forum on stunts and zanshin has an article in one of the early editions of Trolls!Zine that would offer even more options.

2) 7th Ed. had a rule called Kremm Resistance. In essence, for a spell to affect someone was a contested roll based on the targets Wiz stat.
2a) It's a controversial rule. Many didn't like the idea, esp. those coming from a 5th ed. perspective where STR powered all spells.
2b) I don't have a copy of 7th or 7.5 so I'll have to let someone else offer more details on how, exactly, Kremm resistance functions.

3) Missile combat has evolved some over the years.
3a) In early editions it was counted before general melee and resolved vs. the target, i.e. if the target died they were out of the ensuing general melee and not counted in the HPT.
3b) There was a combat phase before general melee where missiles and spells were resolved.
3b) No reason you can't incorporate such a ruling: SR vs. Target # for the arrow (etc) to hit the target. If the target dies, then they're out of melee. If not, well, perhaps the melee will finish them off.
3c) Check the missile combat rules for the 5th ed. Free Rules.

In the end, it's your game. T&T is very flexible and resilient. Just snag a rule from another edition that fits the style of play you want and incorporate it. There's lots of help on this 'board to help you do just that. To paraphrase, "If you're not houseruling, you're not playing T&T."

[nebless]

As far as combat goes it really just depends on how you want to do it. Got a lot of US vs THEM's than the whole combining everything might make sense. Aren't in such a hurry? Than go ahead and do it as all 1 vs 1 attacks.

I know when I would run the solo's with my son as a 2 team group, we'd do our attacks separate and it didn't really slow anything down.

The thing to remember; ANY RPG's rules are made to be modified. The core is there for you to massage and tweak to find your game.

[darrght]

Hi stormcrow I couldn't agree more than with the two learned gents before me in this thread.

Close combat in large groups can become an event characterised by rolling vast numbers of dice but it doesn't have to with the suggestions above.The great thing about the streamlined (I didn't want to put simple) combat system is it really allows the freedom to role-play what your character does. I played quite a lot of Runequest 2, which was very much about each individual's attack and defense rolls. I liked it but always felt it could become a bit....Struggling to find the word, 'mechanical'?

WIZ for warriors does seem a waste at first but I try hard to make sure that it is a stat that gets used for saving rolls in my written solos for all character types. Heck, I liked the idea of WIZ resistance from 7th edition, though it's all or nothing approach with an advantage of just 1 point of WIZ meaning that character always could cast a spell successfully on the other didn't find favour with me. Somewhere in the pit that is my office/gaming area there is a table I created to allow a dice roll to determine such successes or failures. If I can find it, I may post it here

I shan't comment on missiles as I think that's thoroughly covered by mahrundl

[khaboom]

Just one thing to add to the above...

For me, combat is not really a big part of T&T. Yes, you get to it but it is normally over pretty quickly. I think of it as a narrative thing with the GM setting saving rolls as the players say what they try to do to gain an advantage in the combat - to get their damage in without reply so that it is rarely Big Bucket of Dice 1 v Big Bucket of Dice 2.
What this means in my games is that all the players certainly get the chance to shine. I ask everyone into the spotlight, one after the other, hearing what they want to attempt and then going from there. I tell them what the other side do. Often, everyone gets their actions take effect but if there is surprise, maybe not.
What doesn't happen is that the monster goes down without doing anything just because it rolled badly for initiative. I can see why initiative is vital in systems with more complex combat rules where one thing hinges upon another but T&T has an elegant simplicity that avoids the need for the artificiality of turn-by-turn play.
There! I don't suppose I communicated nearly as much as I hoped to but I tried!

[zanshin]

Oct 22, 2019 4:55:31 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

Doing a bit more research on T&T, there are three things I dislike, to the point that they might put me off playing the game. 

1. No individual turns in combat so no "spotlight" for a character (i.e. no time to shine) 
2. Wiz is a complete dump stat for Warriors
3. Missile attack / damage looks confusing, and (I read elsewhere on these forums) possibly broken

I have a fourth which is more of a question. Why have a different mechanic for missile attacks? 

Prof Gremlin et al have covered a lot of this but I'll throw in

1. T&T thrives on post combat description (i.e. get the result, narrate the outcome). Spite damage can be used in interesting ways as well.
2. A dump stat can be a benefit when advancement is by attribute. However, if this bugs you, throw in magic items that require Wiz to power that Warriors can use.
3. Missile combat is a kind of 'baked in' stunt , i.e. it uses the same process for resolution. It works fine when the PC's are mowing down their enemies, but is less fun to be on the receiving end of. There are various fixes, but the easiest is to ignore targetting rules and just count the missile fire in the combat total, unless the player wishes to have the shot work as a stunt.

Trollszine articles that showcase my own approach to T&T combat are

Dare to Daro
I know Kung Fu!
They Know Kung Fu!

You will find many threads about this on the board.

[mahrundl]

Regarding not being able to shine due to group combat, I've never found it to be a problem. Even leaving out stunts and similar, my players will generally have someone stand out from the crowd in most rounds. Sometimes it's just an exceptionally good roll, sometimes it's because some or all of the opposition rolled badly, sometimes it's because they say exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time ("They couldn't possibly hit us at this dist-"...), but exclamations of joy and howls of despair occur pretty frequently at my table. Flexibility, creativity, and sheer gonzoness are remarkably effective at bringing the fun...

[jeffb]

Do not approach T&T with a D&D mindset. You will have a much greater experience with T&T.

[unclecranky]

I would agree with jeffb and the others. There IS a further consideration - talents may be based now (as of Deluxe) on ANY attribute - even allowing the magic-blind warrior type a chance at a "magical moment" at something they're good at. Thus, while they cannot consciously use or direct it, a use for Wiz as an attribute DOES come up as something other than a "dump stat" (I HATE that word. Come up with a proper descriptor that doesn't recall TOG, please. We have "attributes" in T&T, NOT the dehumanizing "stats".

[ProfGremlin]

Oct 25, 2019 23:40:30 GMT -5 unclecranky said:

(I HATE that word. Come up with a proper descriptor that doesn't recall TOG, please. We have "attributes" in T&T, NOT the dehumanizing "stats".

Hmm...

Dump - Ash Heap > Ash-tribute?
Dump - Abandon > Abandon-tribute?
Dump - Junk pile > Junk-tribute?
Dump - Blight? > Blight-tribute...?

Just some thoughts...

[falconious]

With regards to 2, one approach might be to have magic items that require WIZ to use. A simple example might be a sword that can cast a Vorpal Blade on itself, perhaps with a WIZ penalty, or goggles that can give the wearer Cateyes for a combat turn if WIZ is spent. There is a short thread about it in a thread about Warrior subtypes.

[Karl]

T&T sure isn't like that other game and i'm happy for it. I just ran a game of that other game last week and spent like three and a half hours of the session in a cookie cutter lackluster series of balanced combat encounters before I had to call it and go to sleep.

T&T just doesn't have that same balance structure and doesn't support that level of combat importance.

T&T combats are wild and deadly and you just don't find the same limits.

One of my players who loves that other game, had a harder time with T&T till I told him. "ok man,think of it like this....you have every feat from that other game plus 980 other feats you never read about! Imagine what those feats are and try to do those! You want to try and shoot your crossbow at that guys shield so it bounces off and hits his wizard friend around that corner? You got that feat man! Go for it!

To him T&T seemed so.....limiting and empty until he realized it was only because he wasn't playing T&T. He was trying to play T&T with that other games rules.


Also there is nothing wrong with treating missile combat like any other SR roll or like any other attack. 

[dungeondevil]

Sounds like That Other Game 5.0.
T&T is closer to the more free-wheeling style of TOG 0-Edition.