Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 2:38:26 GMT -5
Post by Hogscape on Sept 22, 2009 2:38:26 GMT -5
There has been much talk about the want for a PDF of 5e rules - in fact, there has been a few people calling for lots of stuff to be PDF'd.
From my point of view. If a PDF file is relatively small with limited graphics and a small page count; I like PDF. Otherwise I'd much rather have a real book.
Other pros I can see are - cost of product and cost of postage (lower and nil respectively).
My cons are: printing a PDF at the local printer costs a fortune. If I don't print it, it's no use to me as an online document - I would never attempt to use an electronic document as a reference guide during a live game (but would for solos or PBP games).
I guess the publisher's cons (assuming they already have an electronic copy, like FD and "that company") is that they can't be sure their product won't be sold to one person then distributed for free.
More thoughts please. What are the real pros and cons of this business plan? If it was all down to fear of piracy, no one would publish in PDF...
Halp!
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 5:10:45 GMT -5
Post by machfront on Sept 22, 2009 5:10:45 GMT -5
I think the piracy part of the equation is a no-go argument. It's going to happen. The only way to prevent it is to not release a product at all.
More and more folks are using and buying pdfs for one.
I myself do not favor pdfs, but I'm certainly one of the folks wishing for one (as it pertains to 5th ed. T&T). Why? Options, baby. Options. I have pdfs of a number of games that I also own the dead tree versions of. This makes it easy to reference something real quick in an online discussion, when something pops into my head outta nowhere, and so on. When I read the rules and use them at the table, it's the hard copy. When I'm in the planning stages, it's about 35% pdf referencing, and 65% lookin' to the book.
Also, I know it'll be there (as long as reasonable precautions are taken) if my book is destroyed, lost, stolen, decayed away by the decades, used to fend off the hordes of ladies that are constantly after my hot body and fashionable clothes...whatever.
They make it easy to make reference sheets, character sheets, 'player handbooks' and so forth.
Alternatively, I can print it out and put the nice, shiny book on the shelf for special, quality time with me only and use the printout at the table.
I had all my Original D&D booklet pdfs printed as booklets at Office Depot and it only cost me around 20 bucks or so. Now, my Very Fine to Near Mint original booklets can stay safely put away. Speaking of Original D&D.... since WotC pulled the pdfs, since I already have them, if I, as I stated earlier, take reasonable precautions, I'll have them practically forever despite the fact that Wizards of the Coast isn't interested in taking my money and handing them over to me in purely legal and mutually beneficial free-market fashion.
I'd say most, if not all, of the benefits for me the consumer are mirrored in those who prefer pdfs or use them as an adjunct as I do. To be honest, I don't see how a business could lose in offering pdfs.
|
|
quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 5:29:18 GMT -5
Post by quoghmyre on Sept 22, 2009 5:29:18 GMT -5
I LOVE PDFs ;D On the Mac we have a blazingly fast reader, we can search across a huge number of them in an instant and they print great. My printer can print 100 pages double sided in 10 mins. I purchased the Classic Traveller Cd, that has ALL the classic traveller resources and it was only $35.oo, and that was supplied on a CD with a nice case. It's fantastic when designing an adventure, just search and all the books with references come up, then open the books and there's all the search text highlighted. That's what FBI should do, All the T&T <= v5.5e stuff OCRed PDFed and sold on 1 CD. That would help. LOL never going to happen. www.farfuture.net/cdroms.htmloh and PDFs are incredibly easy to make on a Mac too...
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 5:42:20 GMT -5
Post by machfront on Sept 22, 2009 5:42:20 GMT -5
What a cool link, quog. Oh, how I wish I could have Top Secret/S.I. on pdfs. (to be thoroughly honest, I can't even find any through the underbelly of the internet...) *sobs* But quog makes another great point that I forgot. Search! PDFs are searchable, bless 'em! Also, I failed to mention something else. I buy pdfs of books I've recently purchased and been impressed by for another reason. To further support the creators. I doubt there's a company out there that would begrudge such a gesture.
|
|
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 11:17:19 GMT -5
Post by jongjungbu on Sept 22, 2009 11:17:19 GMT -5
Don't forget how many trees you save with having only a PDF copy not hardcopy! Piracy is still gonna occur. After reading this thread, I did a search and can you believe people are pirating PDF copies of T&T materials that are not even available to buy in PDF? The worst part, T&T materials are not that expensive. You can still buy many solos for example for ~$5, and a rulebook for $20 (USD I mean). And new to boot! (Well new as in never-used but originally left the presses in the 80s, but looks brand new when you get it. My recently acquired new copy of 5.5 looks brand new to me. It is completely untouched. And all 3 of my City of Terrors look in great shape and were not at all expensive to buy.)
People can be very cheap and despicable.
|
|
koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 12:00:43 GMT -5
Post by koraq on Sept 22, 2009 12:00:43 GMT -5
The big win for the producer is of course savings in printing bills, shipping to a warehouse and warehouse rent.
What's the big win for the consumer? Well. If (and that's if) the pdf is not made as a picture, you can search in it. Hopefully you can also print out what you need. Unless some moron decided to "protect" the product you just bought. I'm not a fan.
BTW, who cares if there's T&T stuff out there in the wild. It at least exposes people for it, and if they like it they might buy it. If they wont they probably never would have.
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 18:42:59 GMT -5
Post by machfront on Sept 22, 2009 18:42:59 GMT -5
Yeah, as far as the illegal T&T stuff in concerned... I'd bet some of those folks would have bought it if it were available. I know because I'm one of them. Actually, I don't have any of the illegal T&T pdfs, because the one thing I'm interested in doesn't exist (that I've seen) illegally, let alone legit (the 5th ed. rulebook). But, honestly, I'd really and truly spend 50 bucks for a pdf of 5th ed. than not have it or have an illegal copy...
|
|
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 20:45:08 GMT -5
Post by mahrundl on Sept 22, 2009 20:45:08 GMT -5
The worst part, T&T materials are not that expensive. You can still buy many solos for example for ~$5, and a rulebook for $20 (USD I mean). Disclaimer: I'm not in any way condoning piracy! Be aware that T & T materials are not that cheap for everyone. Last I checked, to order something from Flying Buffalo would have cost me $27 US just for the postage. Factor in the exchange rate (currently very favourable at about 1:1.14 (US:AU), but in recent years it's often been closer to 1:2) and the cost of the item (let's use the $5 US example that you suggested) and I'm paying more than $36.50 in local currency for that item. Not exactly spare change... Sure, ordering more than one item at a time will reduce the cost per item, but it's still a hefty extra cost, and there won't always be more than one item I'll want. From another angle, in my experience there tends to be around a 100% markup on price for pretty much any imported printed matter available here, so it would be about $10 AU to buy the example solo in a shop here. Assuming that you can find a shop that carries them, or is willing to order them in for you... So I'd be very happy to see more of this stuff available in legitimate PDF form.
|
|
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 20:48:32 GMT -5
Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 22, 2009 20:48:32 GMT -5
Don't forget how many trees you save with having only a PDF copy not hardcopy! Piracy is still gonna occur. After reading this thread, I did a search and can you believe people are pirating PDF copies of T&T materials that are not even available to buy in PDF? The worst part, T&T materials are not that expensive. You can still buy many solos for example for ~$5, and a rulebook for $20 (USD I mean). And new to boot! (Well new as in never-used but originally left the presses in the 80s, but looks brand new when you get it. My recently acquired new copy of 5.5 looks brand new to me. It is completely untouched. And all 3 of my City of Terrors look in great shape and were not at all expensive to buy.)
People can be very cheap and despicable.
IF you find pirate PDF's, let Rick know. (Or PM me links, and I'll let rick know.) I pointed out to Rick that he can probably simply use those pirate PDF's on DTRPG, AND ALSO hit the site hosting with a C&D letter.
|
|
Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 22:32:25 GMT -5
Post by Hogscape on Sept 22, 2009 22:32:25 GMT -5
IF you find pirate PDF's, let Rick know. (Or PM me links, and I'll let rick know.) I pointed out to Rick that he can probably simply use those pirate PDF's on DTRPG, AND ALSO hit the site hosting with a C&D letter. Now that is razor sharp thinking! I don't think I've ever seen a dodgy PDF... I asked "that guy" about PDF years ago when I first started contributing. It seemed an obvious choice. After the paramedics left and "that guy" regained consciousness, I vowed never to raise the issue again. I suppose from OP's POV, if they are selling just enough product to break even (I'm pretty sure that's how it is), then a rogue PDF could really hurt him. I'm with Machfont and probably everyone here, I'd never pirate a PDF and I do buy cheapies all the time (as long as they meet my criteria above).
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
PDF
Sept 22, 2009 23:24:16 GMT -5
Post by machfront on Sept 22, 2009 23:24:16 GMT -5
Oh, make no mistake, I actually would pirate a pdf...but only if I had no other alternative, wanted it quite badly, and had the item in question in hard copy.
Still, the important point is that I'd more happily pay almost any price for it to have it legit.
Piracy wouldn't hurt OP a whit. Anyone that pirates something (that's available through legal circles) wasn't going to man up and pay for the item in the first place. In fact, he'd likely be making more money through more sales of pdfs of Dungeoneer's Digest and Hobbit Hole at RPGNow alone.
|
|
|
PDF
Sept 23, 2009 1:11:59 GMT -5
Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 23, 2009 1:11:59 GMT -5
IF you find pirate PDF's, let Rick know. (Or PM me links, and I'll let rick know.) I pointed out to Rick that he can probably simply use those pirate PDF's on DTRPG, AND ALSO hit the site hosting with a C&D letter. Now that is razor sharp thinking! I don't think I've ever seen a dodgy PDF... I just recently told Rick about a pirate PDF on a document serving site. Really good clean, well OCR'd Corgi City of Terrors. It's no longer there. (I let Rick know a couple weeks before GenCon; He took care of it after GenCon...)
|
|
|
PDF
Sept 23, 2009 1:35:45 GMT -5
Post by Toad-Killer-Dog on Sept 23, 2009 1:35:45 GMT -5
Now that is razor sharp thinking! I don't think I've ever seen a dodgy PDF... I just recently told Rick about a pirate PDF on a document serving site. Really good clean, well OCR'd Corgi City of Terrors. It's no longer there. (I let Rick know a couple weeks before GenCon; He took care of it after GenCon...) A few years back I e-mailed troll-God about a pirate pdf of 5th edition, 7th edition and a couple of solos being hosted on rapidshare. Thinking I was being a good gamer, unfortunately I got a kind of angry letter from Rick about how I should have brought it to his attention not Ken's, but it did get it taken down. I didn't mean to give offense, but at the time I was talking to Troll-god pretty regularly and I didn't really know Rick. I guess that means that a copy of the 5th pirate pdf may still be floating around out there somewhere.
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
PDF
Sept 23, 2009 5:40:29 GMT -5
Post by machfront on Sept 23, 2009 5:40:29 GMT -5
So...they're well aware that there are pirate versions of 5e and yet there's still not a legit pdf of 5e?
*sigh* 'K.
|
|
|
PDF
Sept 23, 2009 6:39:34 GMT -5
Post by hrrrothgarrr on Sept 23, 2009 6:39:34 GMT -5
Could be they don't have the resources available to create a legitimate 5e pdf. If nothing else it does take a certain amount of time that they would then not have spend on other things. It may simply be a case of different priorities.
Or they may feel differently about the value of pdfs, there may be licensing issues we are not aware of, etc...
|
|