4 D&D

[Hogscape]

One of the players asked me what I thought of D&D 4e and whether I would consider running it.

The conversation didn't go anywhere since I don't own the rules (never even flipped through one of the volumes) and no one else had an opinion on the topic.

Whilst in the local game store at lunch today, I decided to take a peek.

My first thought was... The entry point for this game is $180.00 AUD... To me, that seems a massive investment. There were lots of adventures and other support material available of course which made me pine for those days in the early 80s when there was a substantial amount of T&T on the shelves of my local store. At $35.00 AUD a hit, the adventures looked like pretty good value.

There were also several packs of different cardboard floor plans that seemed reasonably priced and very attractive.

Anyhoo, I nipped back to the office and decided to postpone actual 'work' for a moment and check out a few 4e forums. The very first GM question I hit was something so complicated that I really couldn't fathom the query. It was to with a rogue lifting a tarp where 2 monsters were hiding and whether the critters would get the drop on him.

In T&T the answer is simple - 'yes' if it would be fun, 'no' if the player takes the necessary precautions.

But in 4e D&D the creature and the rogue had specific attributes and statistics for determining the outcome - that didn't make it easier, numerous other posters had responded with their take on which stat to use, whether half light or a half move might apply a modifier and so on...

The price point completely ruled out the purchase, the array of support material made me wish I was wealthier but the staggering complexity of the simplist of gaming situations literally blew my tiny mind.

If the question of D&D is raised again, I'll point that individual to a copy of the Swords & Wizardy White Box edition... It's free!

[jongjungbu]

That specific scenario about the rogue is the same in D&D 3e too! But yeah, that's one reason I like T&T over D&D...combat. Initiative for each person, partial cover, fatigue, AC, to-hit bonuses and penalties. One thing that I do like about 4th edition is the way that powers are re-arranged into anytime, encounter, and daily powers--even for fighters. And, they have cards (or you can make your own) for them. But, as you mentioned, theres a price. If you buy cards, it is something like $10-$15 USD per class. I couldn't afford to keep buying them for every class, since there are 8 classes in the PHB and 8 more in the PHB2. I said forget it.

Big thing for me... no solo module library. T&T wins!. :-P

[wilowisp]

Oct 27, 2009 2:28:06 GMT -5 Hogscape said:

If the question of D&D is raised again, I'll point that individual to a copy of the Swords & Wizardy White Box edition... It's free!

There are a few other options along those lines; here's my favorite. Its a clone of BX..........

Labyrinth Lord

They've changed the free download so that you don't get any art unless you buy it, but the game is still free. Its also connected to a Gamma World clone called Mutant Future:

Gamma World as it was meant to be

MF still has all the art.

[jongjungbu]

Oh wow, I didn't know anything about Swords & Wizardry. I just downloaded the rules. I actually still have my AD&D1st edition books and I see the similarities. Anyway, cool! Thanks HS. Too bad I don't have anyone to play that with anymore haha.

[ProfGremlin]

Oct 27, 2009 7:27:20 GMT -5 jongjungbu said:

But yeah, that's one reason I like T&T over D&D...combat.

It's quite similar in Legend of the Five Rings as well. I've been participating as a player in bi-weekly sessions over the last year and everytime we run into combat the whole session screeches to a halt. Ten minutes of game-time can easily take over an hour to resolve. In part, I think it's due to the crunchiness of the system requiring the player to decide just what maneuver they want to use. Of course, in that statement is the other issue: the player really needs to be completely conversant with their character and their capabilities. Having to re-read your character sheet every time you enter combat to remind yourself just what your character is capable of... well, I'll be polite. When you throw a spell caster into the mix it's bogged down even further if the player doesn't have a handle on the various spells they can use and needs to re-read a list of thirty or forty entries.

For me, I want a good story mixed with some action and character growth and development. If I wanted to crunch numbers I'd have become an accountant.

[feldrik]

My local group plays 4E but does not use most of the rules. They have not warmed up to T&T at this time but they do like the othe rules light games I have introduced them too.
They were largley unaware of the huge number of alternatives that are available on the market and as free downloads.
Once the curtain is pulled aside and the other options are presented 4E looks like a poor choice.

[machfront]

There are far too many great out-of-print and in print rpgs out there to be stuck playing 4E.

Hogscape, if I understand correctly, the crazy complication of such a simple scenario is one of a number of things that are now easier than they were in 3.5.
I don't really know myself, but that's what I hear.
I....simply cannot imagine....

jongjungbu,
Well, if you're interested in AD&D, then the retro-clone you want is OSRIC.
S&W is Original D&D + some stuff from the original supplements.
S&W: White Box is Original D&D, but just the three little booklets from the original box.
Labyrinth Lord is a clone of the 1981 Moldvay Basic and Cook/Marsh Expert rulebooks specifically. (it's also my personal fave of all the clones).
There are other cool ones out there, but these are the big three.

I have to agree with Prof statement that if I wanted to be sweating over a spreadsheet and wondering what was what for when and how and for an hour or two for something that should be taken care of in a split second... then I'd be an accountant, or... sit in a corner of a bare room memorizing telephone books or ... something more exciting than a crunchy game.

[jongjungbu]

Aaah, gotcha!
Once again, machfront makes things crystal clear.
I was wondering where S&W was coming from. I knew it must have been before they started doing D&D and AD&D.

I agree too. One of the things that you can do in T&T is just say, Okay, let's make that a L2-SR on DEX and if you succeed, you weren't detected. Done. :-p

Hard to get away with something so simple with D&D/AD&D players though. They love hardcore rules I have found. That's I guess where D&D/AD&D shines is it is so in-depth if that is what you want. The golden egg is in the details.

[Hogscape]

Mach, I know that this is not the place for a full discussion of D&D clones but can you give me a quick overview of why LL is your fave?

[machfront]

Well, first, because my personal fave flavor of D&D is Moldvay Basic and Cook/Marsh Expert (commonly referred to online as B/X).

Second, because Dan Proctor's writing and editing is first rate. The organization of the book is just right.

As to the root of the rules.. the reason B/X/LL is my fave is because, to me, it's the porridge that's just right. Not too light, not too crunchy. Not too obsessive 'bout little things that don't matter and I'll never need or use and at the same time doesn't leave out things I may use, but not all that often (naval and aerial combat spring to mind).

Plus, Brave Halfling Publishing and others have some really awesome supplementary material and adventures. However, one should note that these can really be used for any of the clones/any flavor of D&D with minor tweaking, if any at all.

Lastly, the soon-to-be-released Advanced Edition Companion will sorta make LL kind of the way a lot of us played "AD&D" back in the day. In other words, use of the characters, spells, weapons, monsters, separating race from class in the case of the demi-humans and other little and not difficult details, while using LL as a base for the brunt of the rules... kinda like when we all used to ignore all the minor nit-picky and long-winded things about AD&D when we were young. ;D

[Hogscape]

Sweet, thanks Mach, that puts it nicely in perspective... Downloading now...

[wilowisp]

Oct 27, 2009 23:33:57 GMT -5 machfront said:

Lastly, the soon-to-be-released Advanced Edition Companion will sorta make LL kind of the way a lot of us played "AD&D" back in the day. In other words, use of the characters, spells, weapons, monsters, separating race from class in the case of the demi-humans and other little and not difficult details, while using LL as a base for the brunt of the rules... kinda like when we all used to ignore all the minor nit-picky and long-winded things about AD&D when we were young. ;D

It should also be noted that something like this has ALREADY been released as a free download to simulate OD&D, if you just want the rules without any art. I've had the OD&D one for some time now. If I were building a new D&D group today, this is what I would use, as the two books are freely available now for download; I would however use the article "Can You Dance? Can You Juggle? At the Same Time?" from Dragon Magazine as the skill system- having the Dragon Magazine CD Archive is sweet!

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Ah a holder of the mystical and much sought after "Dragon Archive", sir you have my most avaricious envy!

[Hogscape]

Oct 28, 2009 9:10:50 GMT -5 wilowisp said:

I would however use the article "Can You Dance? Can You Juggle? At the Same Time?" from Dragon Magazine as the skill system- having the Dragon Magazine CD Archive is sweet!

Hmmm pray do tell more of the skill system of which you speak...

[wilowisp]

basically, its a "Basic Role Playing"-like % skill a system (which is nice, because Thieves already roll % to work their skills), where PCs spend points to buy their skills and/or raise their chance number. The number of points each PC gets is randomly rolled; but, its weighted so that "smart" classes are likely to get more points initially. Each of the four major classes have a few skills reserved to themselves; but otherwise, any PC can buy any skill. Most skills are %, but a few are pass/fail: i.e. things like "swimming". The article only gives suggestions for further skill development, but what I like to do is give each PC 5 skill build points every level, + or - their Int bonus. There is also a reference to an "age chart", which would show the effects of aging on PCs; but, the chart is missing from the article- bad editing, I would suppose............