Publishing T&T without "that company"

[machfront]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer that there shouldn't be a centralized place. Only that there didn't absolutely need to be. Obviously, having everyone choose whether to go in or go it alone is the best way 'bout it.

Ragnorakk,
Well, man...some folks are just born leaders. Looks like you're the one to stay still whilst everyone else took a step back.

[ragnorakk]

Well, it's something that'll be available for anyone to use - provided that there's no real stopping-point snag with Ken or RIck, and I don't think there will be (provided that content is free). I haven't started putting things up publicly on it pending such things - ducks in row kind of stuff, which gives me some time to puzzle through some of the sites oddities (document format stuff, etc). We used jongjungbu's Barony of Sanris as a test and it looks like it can be made to work. So yeah - it's something there to be used as people see fit - and it would be an entry in a large, searchable marketplace and such - we'll see what can be done with it! ;D

[jongjungbu]

What Machfront said. It's a good idea. I just kind of waiting for someone else to lead the way. Guess thats you!

[machfront]

Ya know, any of you guys putting out free stuff have even less to worry and wonder about concerning copyright and trademark. Since there's no profit, there's no problem. (Probably still a good idea to note that "Tunnels & Trolls is a trademark owned by Flying Buffalo Inc." or whatever, though. At least to be nice.)

[koraq]

Having "Tunnels & Trolls is a trademark owned by Flying Buffalo Inc." is a must. Make sure you have it in there. I have asked Rick for permission to post free stuff on my blog and he said it was just fine as long as that TM was clearly attributed to FBI.

I still haven't heard back from him on how to handle stuff when money change hands. Is he on a con somewhere maybe? I don't want to harass him or anything, but would like to be able to go forward with this.

[uburoi]

Here's what I've been using to create PDFs: Primo PDF

It's small, it seems pretty quick, it'll make a PDF out of any file you can print, and it's free! (There is a for-pay version that has a lot more options, but for creating small PDFs the free version has proven pretty nifty.)

[ragnorakk]

OK, thinking of a magazine, how's this as a first stab at attribution?

Tunnels & Trolls, created by Ken St. Andre, is a trademark owned by Flying Buffalo Inc.

All artists and authors submitting and contributing to Trollbridge retain all rights and responsibilities regarding their work. Trollbridge asks for the right to print the work in the issue it’s originally published in, in that form, in perpetuity - and offers thanks in perpetuity also

[quoghmyre]

While I exult your work.

It doesn't matter what we put or think, if FBI or Ken don't agree. They need to be the ones who outline what is and isn't acceptable, what does and doesn't need to be included.

Look at what WoTC and Mongoose are doing, clear lines, clear credits, helps make lots of content. I have recently heard of 3 people who won't be publishing T&T stuff, why? Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

We can't fix that, only Rick and Ken can. IMO.

[koraq]

Nov 24, 2009 17:24:23 GMT -5 quoghmyre said:

It doesn't matter what we put or think, if FBI or Ken don't agree. They need to be the ones who outline what is and isn't acceptable, what does and doesn't need to be included.

This is worth quoting for truth.

[machfront]

I don't think it needs to be all that complicated. Ken and Rick don't need to lay down strict and regimented guidelines. They don't even need to tell us they agree. Neither the trademark or copyright is being infringed on or challenged. Nor is the material pretending to be official. Nor is... well...anything else occurring with material like campaigns and adventures and so forth have anything to do with needing strictures.
I don't see what all the hubub is about.
At the very most, they should be asked for they are cool with it in general and then show them an example of the "For use with...." and the "Tunnels & Trolls in a trademark of...etc." statements and that should be that.
Contacting them is just a friendly gesture. It isn't required. (though I think it's cool to do it)

[machfront]

Please note I don't mean to suggest that we should all be crashing through the undergrowth the little to no regard.
I just don't get the impression I'm getting that it seems like Rick and Ken need to draw up some contract to be unfurled on a mile-long parchment scroll.

'Course, if there was already an OGL and/or already a clone, we'd not need to have this conversation at all I guess.

[machfront]

OH! EMM! GEE!

Ken at Trollhalla:
"As various recent examinations have shown, Tunnels and Trolls is, de facto, an open license. Trademark expired int he mid 80s and has never been renewed. It seems unlikely that Flying Buffalo will renew it now. Rick would very much like to control what is published for T & T, but history has shown that he can't do it. Gentlemen, do whatever you want, and if you have any feeling for me or the game, then just do your best."

Well, then. There you are.

[mgtremaine]

err um let me think about that some more.

-Mike

Added: So I assuming he means there was a failure to complete the renewal.


Question: How long does a trademark registration last?

Answer: Unlike copyrights or patents, trademark registration rights can last indefinitely if the owner continues to use the mark to identify goods or services.
The term of a federal trademark registration is ten years, with ten-year renewal terms. However, between the fifth and sixth year after the date of initial trademark registration, you must file an "affidavit of use" and pay an additional fee to keep the registration alive. You must also file an affidavit and pay a fee within a year before the end of every ten-year period.

If an affidavit is missed, the registration is canceled. However, you may file the affidavit within a grace period of six months after the end of the sixth or tenth year, with payment of an additional fee.

How do we verify TM status?

[mgtremaine]

Found em....

Serial Number Reg. Number Word Mark Check Status Live/Dead
1 74046115 1653336 TUNNELS & TROLLS TARR DEAD
2 73270093 TUNNELS & TROLLS TARR DEAD

Second one is FBI

Word Mark TUNNELS & TROLLS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 028. US 022. G & S: A FANTASY ROLE-PLAYING GAME SYSTEM. FIRST USE: 19750006. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19750006
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 73270093
Filing Date July 11, 1980
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Owner (APPLICANT) FLYING BUFFALO COMPUTER CONFLICT-SIMULATION INCORPORATED CORPORATION ARIZONA P. O. BOX 1467 SCOTTSDALE ARIZONA 85252
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date March 31, 1982

Uspto has a online search

tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4009:ltjt3l.1.1

So Ken is 100% correct TM is dead and has been for a long time. The second on listed is for the PC game but it died in 1998.

-Mike

[quoghmyre]

This is amazing news and one that changes everything. We have our text:-)

As various recent examinations have shown, Tunnels and Trolls is, de facto, an open license.