machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Nov 25, 2009 5:04:36 GMT -5
I'm surprised, though I shouldn't be.
And anyway, now that I've thought about it, I don't recall T&T's product identity ever being strongly defended. I can't recall what the law itself is called, and the specifics of it...but simply put, if a company does not defend it's IP, they lose it. So, really, even if the trademark and copyright were both still in effect, it would likely have been easy for someone with the wherewithal to do whatever they wished. (Which I guess we've seen lately, ay?)
Anyhoo. As strange as this is, and...well...a lil sad, too, it sure is an exciting development in a way, huh?
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Post by zanshin on Nov 25, 2009 7:08:27 GMT -5
Very interesting.
As Machfront said, sad in a way that Ken/Rick do not have control over their baby, but at the same time, liberating for the creation of T&T products. Maybe its the best way of keeping Kens creation alive for the future. I am sure that anything he produces will be looked at with great interest by T&T fans in any event.
It is pretty impressive that the stuff produced for T&T in the mid 70's is still completely useable with almost no tweaking with the latest versions of its ruleset. I dont think thats true of any other system from that time. Furthermore, 99% of RPG systems that have ever existed are effectively extinct (in terms of new product). T&T - still going strong.
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Nov 25, 2009 8:16:25 GMT -5
Good, now we can stop being the Judean Peoples Front and get down to publishing.
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koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
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Post by koraq on Nov 25, 2009 8:29:40 GMT -5
I think the hubub is because everyone is a bit touchy right now about infringing on anybody's rights.  Well those news indeed change everything. JPF is hereby abolished. |
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Nov 25, 2009 9:37:39 GMT -5
I think the hubub is because everyone is a bit touchy right now about infringing on anybody's rights. Well those news indeed change everything. JPF is hereby abolished. I thought we were the People's Front of Judea! Not those SPLITTERS!  wow. This is kind of exciting and worrying at the same time. I sure hope Ken isn't doing this because he feels he won't be around much longer to defend T&T as the creator.  Note too that this development does not defend ANYTHING "that guy" has done. He's off the hook for re-printing 4th Edition (maybe!) and possibly even M!M!, but he's still pilfered artwork from DeviantArt, still stolen an old D&D module, and still sold Mazes & Minotaurs for profit when he had no right to. He STILL ain't getting my money. |
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Post by mgtremaine on Nov 25, 2009 9:56:28 GMT -5
Dang, I just printed the T-Shirts!
-Mike
Added:
Regarding the 4th and M!M! it's still copyright infringement even if he never gets taken to court. The best solution for that stuff is to be in the FBI store then the moral issues go away.
Reviewing the Copyright notices of some of the books
5th Edit-
TextCopyright© 1975,1977,1979KenSt.Andre
ArtCopyright© 1979Flying Buffalo Inc All rights revert to the original artists.
Weirdworld-
Copyright © 1977 Flying Buffalo Inc Printed i n USA
Beyond the Silvered Pane-
Copyright © 1978, 1980 Flying Buffalo Inc.
Arena of Khazan-
Text Copyright © 1979 by Ken St. Andre
Front Cover Artwork Copyright © 1979 by Gene Day
All Other Artwork Copyright © by Peter Laird
Catacombs of the Bear Cult-
Copyright © 1981 by Flying Buffalo Inc. All rights reserved.
So at first pass it looks like most things Ken did, Ken retained the Copyright most everything else is FBI's.... [Someone should check the 4th Edition] So I guess it really is up to Ken regarding rules usage. Other things like Magic Matrix would be Rick... HOWEVER IANAL just a curious monkey.
-Mike
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Post by ProfGremlin on Nov 25, 2009 9:59:45 GMT -5
Well, between Ken's stament via Machfront's post and mgtremaine's research into the trademark status things are pretty well clear as far as fan creations to be used with Tunnels & Trolls. Now, that being said, do we need to look into the copyright(s) of the game to make sure that things stay on the up and up?
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Nov 25, 2009 10:24:40 GMT -5
[Regarding the 4th and M!M! it's still copyright infringement even if he never gets taken to court. The best solution for that stuff is to be in the FBI store then the moral issues go away. ] Ah, I thought that the trademark lapsing might have affected those as well. SO I guess his copies of T&T 1st (US and UK versions) are verboten as well. d**n, I was kind of wondering what 1st Ed looked like. |
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Post by mgtremaine on Nov 25, 2009 10:42:41 GMT -5
Random extra info for the curious here is a link the fees attached to Trademarks [near the bottom of the page]. www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2009september15.htmThere is talk over at Trollhalla about trying to create an entity to hold Trademark and or define an SRD of Open License. Doing such things will require some more money and obviously some legal advice. I would state right now I'd willing to donate up to $100 bucks to a fund to get these done. I have no idea how much it would cost but if people are serious I'm sure we could pass the hat to raise enough to get it done. Just a thought. -Mike |
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Post by bdfiscus on Nov 25, 2009 11:12:17 GMT -5
I am a bit confused by all this... does it mean that a retro-clone of the T&T rules could therefore be actually CALLED "Tunnels and Trolls" ?? Does it mean than a fanmade SRD is now legal as well ?  Dont want to break the law (or make any enemies); just have some questions...) Does it also mean that OP's M6E is perfectly legal as well ? |
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Post by ragnorakk on Nov 25, 2009 12:25:54 GMT -5
Good, now we can stop being the Judean Peoples Front and get down to publishing. ;D ...but did you just call me 'Big Nose'? |
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Post by ragnorakk on Nov 25, 2009 12:47:48 GMT -5
just more wow... (I somehow think that the Mystical 6th is kept safe from poaching  ) more wow - but yeah, do bear in mind that it is de facto - and you others have certainly shown a far more comprehensive understanding of trademark and copyright than I - it certainly seems like a well-timed nod of the head or wink... Huh... I think this is gonna take a minute to digest... |
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Post by ragnorakk on Nov 25, 2009 12:50:06 GMT -5
I am a bit confused by all this... does it mean that a retro-clone of the T&T rules could therefore be actually CALLED "Tunnels and Trolls" ?? Does it mean than a fanmade SRD is now legal as well ? This just melted my brain... |
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koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
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Post by koraq on Nov 25, 2009 12:59:51 GMT -5
I'm going to take until tomorrow to digest the implications of this.
BTW I will put my money where my mouth is if a sensible org headed by Ken is formed to own everything.
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Post by mgtremaine on Nov 25, 2009 13:24:13 GMT -5
I was not specific before but like Koraq says I want to see Ken and Rick involved.
-Mike
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