machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Nov 25, 2009 16:01:42 GMT -5
I am a bit confused by all this... does it mean that a retro-clone of the T&T rules could therefore be actually CALLED "Tunnels and Trolls" ?? Does it mean than a fanmade SRD is now legal as well ? Wow. Yeah. I....I think so. Wow. I mean... Ken has copyright on the text of T&T 5th ed., for example. So, since game mechanics are not subject to copyright, but their presentation can be, and since neither the trademark nor the intellectual property has been vigorously defended... Basically, it certainly seems that a retro-clone could be produced that, while with differing text, the mechanics were 100% the same (as opposed to the standard retro-clone action of 95%-99% the same)...and actually be called Tunnels & Trolls. Obvously, IANAL and there may be plenty of subtle odds and ends I'm not privy to and don't understand. Still. Holy moly. |
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Nov 25, 2009 16:14:36 GMT -5
Well, between Ken's stament via Machfront's post and mgtremaine's research into the trademark status things are pretty well clear as far as fan creations to be used with Tunnels & Trolls. Now, that being said, do we need to look into the copyright(s) of the game to make sure that things stay on the up and up? Certainly can't hurt - but it really seems to be six-of-one/half-dozen-other so long as acknowledgement and attribution is given (with regard to fan creations anyway) |
|
quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
|
Post by quoghmyre on Nov 25, 2009 16:25:02 GMT -5
This is fantastic, I'm over the moon about this, so many people, including myself have been holding back because of this issue.
I think we will see great things and T&T will now get some traction.
T&T will now live forever! unless some miss guided person tries to tie it up again.
|
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Nov 25, 2009 16:44:22 GMT -5
Indeed - it seems a little too easy to imagine nightmare scenarios of such a thing... ugh...
I'd be very surprised to see it come to that though. *sound of fingers crossing*
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Nov 25, 2009 18:39:12 GMT -5
Indeed - it seems a little too easy to imagine nightmare scenarios of such a thing... Well, there's always the good possibility of poor quality takes on the rules glutting the T&T marketscape. Here's hoping that doesn't happen. It would be a shame that the Real McCoy would be lost in the shuffle. |
|
|
|
Post by mgtremaine on Nov 25, 2009 19:02:39 GMT -5
Obviously the biggest win is the Tradermark issue is a non-issue so if you want to put Tunnels & Trolls on your module or set of house rules then you are free to do so. Going beyond that in search of a true OGL and SRD with a snazzy license and all that is going to take something else which is what I was offer donation towards. Fact is we don't need it and unless enough people really want to go after it then I'd say don't bother. [In fact if we go so far to try and renew the Trademark then we are stuck having to defend it which costs money. I'm sure the money and the hassle have a lot to do why why Rick let it go before.] What I really hope we don't see is wholesale infringement on existing products like well someone we know. If moment is good perhaps we can get Rick to get 5th Edition up as pdf in the drivethru store that + the short rules that are around should be enough to create a solid base. House rules and derived "world themes" can flow from there. That's really about all I can think to say on the matter, I'm hoping to see new products there for 2010  -Mike |
|
uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
|
Post by uburoi on Nov 25, 2009 20:11:14 GMT -5
Owner (APPLICANT) FLYING BUFFALO COMPUTER CONFLICT-SIMULATION INCORPORATED CORPORATION ARIZONA P. O. BOX 1467 SCOTTSDALE ARIZONA 85252 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 31, 1982 Uspto has a online search tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4009:ltjt3l.1.1So Ken is 100% correct TM is dead and has been for a long time. The second on listed is for the PC game but it died in 1998. Actually, not to pick nits but it looks like the second ref is to the original game as well. Remember, before FBI loosed T&T on the world they were primarily known (as far as I can remember) for play-by-mail wargames such as Nuclear War and Starweb. That's probably what "FLYING BUFFALO COMPUTER CONFLICT-SIMULATION INCORPORATED CORPORATION" refers to, as processing PBM turns was done on computers back then. |
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Nov 26, 2009 15:26:01 GMT -5
Obviously the biggest win is the Tradermark issue is a non-issue so if you want to put Tunnels & Trolls on your module or set of house rules then you are free to do so. Going beyond that in search of a true OGL and SRD with a snazzy license and all that is going to take something else which is what I was offer donation towards. Fact is we don't need it and unless enough people really want to go after it then I'd say don't bother. [In fact if we go so far to try and renew the Trademark then we are stuck having to defend it which costs money. I'm sure the money and the hassle have a lot to do why why Rick let it go before.] What I really hope we don't see is wholesale infringement on existing products like well someone we know. If moment is good perhaps we can get Rick to get 5th Edition up as pdf in the drivethru store that + the short rules that are around should be enough to create a solid base. House rules and derived "world themes" can flow from there. -Mike Yeah - I am thinking now that the trademark issue is pretty much not-really an issue, at least after a couple of days of thinking on some light reading on it. The game does not rely on the trademark. I suppose it's possible that a bunch of sub-par material could blossom forth - but you know, 30 years later, some of the worst RPG books in the world are collector's items! (Field Guide to Encounters by Judges Guild... ouch!)  |
|
uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
|
Post by uburoi on Nov 26, 2009 15:59:16 GMT -5
some of the worst RPG books in the world are collector's items! (Field Guide to Encounters by Judges Guild... ouch!) Yo, don't be hatin' on the Field Guide! Where else are you going to find: Man-sized flying bacon armed with a trident that shoots hot grease! Creatures that "tinkle" holy water and crap gold pieces! Unicellular creatures as player characters! And more Dray Prescott references that you can shake a stick at! It's like a Ed Wood movie - it may not be GOOD, but at least it's never boring. |
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Nov 26, 2009 16:41:49 GMT -5
...no no...
it is worth every dime for entertainment value... it is the goofiest thing I've ever seen (secondhand)
How about the Whole Delver's Catalogue... that things is quite a work of impressive-dumb too...
|
|
kopf
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 211 
|
Post by kopf on Nov 27, 2009 2:40:34 GMT -5
...the Tradermark issue is a non-issue so if you want to put Tunnels & Trolls on ... set of house rules then you are free to do so. Going beyond that in search of a true OGL and SRD with a snazzy license and all that is going to take something else which is what I was offer donation towards. Fact is we don't need it and unless enough people really want to go after it then I'd say don't bother. (In fact if we go so far to try and renew the Trademark then we are stuck having to defend it which costs money. I'm sure the money and the hassle have a lot to do why why Rick let it go before.) What I really hope we don't see is wholesale infringement on existing products like well someone we know...-Mike |
|
koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
|
Post by koraq on Nov 28, 2009 9:21:44 GMT -5
I argue that by tacitly supporting Loomis's Trademark, that we maintain a standard of quality to the brand name that we have not not seen exercised by those that have sought to make it their property. I totally agree. This is our best way to handle the situation. It might not hold in court, but it will be a sign of honour and commitment to ideals. |
|
|
|
Post by ProfGremlin on Nov 28, 2009 9:52:56 GMT -5
I argue that by tacitly supporting Loomis's Trademark, that we maintain a standard of quality to the brand name that we have not not seen exercised by those that have sought to make it their property. I can get behind that thinking. Beyond the trademark issue is the, to me, more important copyright issue. Even if the trademark isn't rigorously defended the copyright is most likely still in effect. [Don't quote me, I'm not a lawyer ] So, yeah, support the trademark, indicate that your particular item is a fan-created publication and no intent to infringe on the rights of the owner of the trademark/copyright is intended. Give FBI/FD their due credit on the front page. If the fan base supports the publisher more than likely the support will flow the other direction as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Vin Ahrr Vin on Nov 28, 2009 12:03:51 GMT -5
Ken at Trollhalla: "As various recent examinations have shown, Tunnels and Trolls is, de facto, an open license. Trademark expired int he mid 80s and has never been renewed. It seems unlikely that Flying Buffalo will renew it now. Rick would very much like to control what is published for T & T, but history has shown that he can't do it. Gentlemen, do whatever you want, and if you have any feeling for me or the game, then just do your best."To mirror some of the statements of others, I think it would be nice to keep Rick and Ken in the loop as much as possible and to create some sort of doc that is in keeping with the spirit of the T&T rules set. I agree that having lots of folks staple their own house rules onto an SRD has the potential to really water down the value of T&T and we should be careful to try to avoid this. In other words, if we are self-appointed guardians of the nature of T&T we ought to try to keep it as pure as possible, at least at the SRD level. My thinking is also that I would prefer to see an SRD based on 5E rather than 7E for a couple of reasons. 1. 5E is closer to the original game. 2. 5E is still the most supported version. 3. 7E is being marketed and is active, while 5E is more dead. I imagine that you would get fewer challenges to a dead system than a live one. Just my two cents. |
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Nov 28, 2009 20:21:10 GMT -5
I argue that by tacitly supporting Loomis's Trademark, that we maintain a standard of quality to the brand name that we have not not seen exercised by those that have sought to make it their property. I can get behind that thinking. Beyond the trademark issue is the, to me, more important copyright issue. Even if the trademark isn't rigorously defended the copyright is most likely still in effect. [Don't quote me, I'm not a lawyer ] So, yeah, support the trademark, indicate that your particular item is a fan-created publication and no intent to infringe on the rights of the owner of the trademark/copyright is intended. Give FBI/FD their due credit on the front page. If the fan base supports the publisher more than likely the support will flow the other direction as well. Avoiding copyright infringement is the responsibility of the author. To give an absurd example - you write a solo adventure and a character in it gives a speech. That speech is Troll Talk, verbatim, from 5th edition - ACK! Violation! Personally I think Ken's How to be A GM and "Do this when you get out" sections of 5th edition (verbatim) should be a part of every book about anything, everywhere, forever... I wonder if he'd say yes to that? Including the terminology of the game is part and parcel of nominative use. As it stands by Ken, attribution could be made as "T&T de facto licence"! I'm still moony on this one, forgive me... FTR I think Ken and Rick should be involved to the extent that they want to be - which is pretty much the same as everyone else. I don't want to publish anything that did not acknowledge them. |
|
