Skills in T&T

[Hogscape]

Hi folks,

I'm just two sessions in to my first 7e campaign. I had planned to introduce skills into the mix...

However, the players have hardly even looked at their Talents yet! They're probably too busy rediscovering the joys of the Dungeon Delve after years of realistic gaming...

What are your thoughts on Skills in T&T? Do we need 'em or not?

If yes, they might be better suited for non-dungoeneering games. I also run a Discworld T&T game (5e) were I do use skills.

Thanks

[WSmith]

FWIW, since I am still a rookie with T&T, I can only say from my perspective that I find it refreshing to not have to worry about skills. In all the years of D&D, I never used non-weapon proficiencies, and only rarely used secondary skills. One of T&T strenghts is that a warrior fights and a wizard casts spells, and one cannot do what the other does. Strong archtypes means less worrying about certain skills that most likley won't come into play during my style of play, which is "kill monsters and take their stuff."

[skathros]

personally, i prefer the talent method of 7E over the "great hunking list o skills a la RM".

[WSmith]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Talents. That is an excellent idea and a great substitution for a laundry list of skills.

[mahrundl]

Well said, Khayd'haik! I Exalt you!

[mahrundl]

No, no, thank you!

Your labelling of various things as intrusive or not crystallised some of the issues I have with 7th edition. I've always preferred games that were rules-light; in hindsight, it's not the amount of rules but how much they get in the way of playing that bothered me. I hadn't realised that before.

7th edition is still better than many / most games on the market today in that respect. But 5th edition is even less intrusive. I know that familiarity is part of it, but the biggest name RPG today still feels like a straightjacket, and who can roll dice in a straightjacket? ;D

[WSmith]

khaydhaik said:

Personally, I think that 7E introduced more complexity to T&T than it should have. Talents add to the complexity of the game. SRs for spells add to the complexity, as does kremm resistance. Yet of these three additions, I've discovered that when it comes to writing a solo adventure, Talents add something to the game without much effort, while SRs for spells and kremm resistance really make some scenes difficult to write. For example, you can't just say that someone casts a spell and this effect happens.

I wouldn't have thought this when I was first playing T&T with v7, since I was coming from a background in 1st ed AD&D, Classic D&D, and more recently Savage Worlds, Hackmaster, etc. It seemed very light in comparrison to all those.

However, now that I have seen 5.5, I can agree with what you are saying. IMO, I am not really keen on kremm resistance. The only may to make me like it is to use hogscape's suggestion that the target's WIZ modifies the SR. Which leads to another point. I don't care for SR for casting spells. I just don't. I much prefer spells just working.

T&T v7 is still not as complex as other modern RPGs, but v5.5 is even more simplistic. Therefore I am gravitating towards using mostly the older rules, with a few add ons from the new rules.

[quoghmyre]

Having in the past spent many many hours adapting the MS&P skill system to T&T that skills just bog the game down. Talents are a great compromise. They help make your characters unique add a little more flexibility to the SR without intruding into the game play.

[Hogscape]

Outside the dungeon environment, my players are very 'reactionary' they wait for things to happen so they can respond. I find skills are handy tools to slip the players knowledge that their characters would have but they don't.

Inside the dungeon, it's a different story and my lot don't look at their skills or Talents.

[khaydhaik]

From the Lost and Found archives:

I don't think Talents are necessary. They're ok as an option for those that want to make use of them. I think they are allowed to grow too high too quickly in 7E. And I'm not sure I like the talents like Roguery that allow you to use your Talent in place of any of three attributes in any situation. That seems a bit excessive. I think a Talent should be usable only in certain situations, not across the board in all situations in place of even just one attribute.

[khaydhaik]

From the Lost and Found archives:

Personally, I think that 7E introduced more complexity to T&T than it should have. Talents add to the complexity of the game. SRs for spells add to the complexity, as does kremm resistance. Yet of these three additions, I've discovered that when it comes to writing a solo adventure, Talents add something to the game without much effort, while SRs for spells and kremm resistance really make some scenes difficult to write. For example, you can't just say that someone casts a spell and this effect happens.

Talents are non-intrusive. You can use them whenever they seem appropriate, and you can ignore them as much as you want without feeling like you're breaking any rules or being inconsistent. If you forget to have a player roll on a Talent, no big deal; if a player thinks a Talent might be of use in a situation, the player can ask to be allowed to use the Talent. If you forget to roll on a Talent for a NPC, that's no big deal, either; your players aren't going to make a fuss about your not making such a roll.

On the other hand, SRs for spells and kremm resistance are intrusive. If you use them in your game, you have to use them all the time; you can't forget or ignore them, or you'll come off as arbitrary and unfair. If you forget to roll a SR for the evil spellcaster, the players won't like it. And if you have a big scene based on the casting of certain spells, the SR for casting or kremm resistance either one can mess up your scene. The SR for casting and kremm resistance don't help to move the game forward, but to hold it back.

While Talents aren't necessary, they aren't any trouble to keep, either. Even if you seldom use them, if they can be used to save a character's life or move the game forward at a crucial point, then they're worth having, and someone will appreciate them.

[machfront]

Hello there all.
First post here, but I wanted to ask about this very subject and it seemed odd to make a whole new topic...

I'd like to integrate skills into T&T. I'd be using 5.5.

I'll admit that I haven't played T&T much and it was quite a while back. (I bought the 5e from a local game store back in '91....I don't know why they had the Corgi edition here in Georgia, but they did. Back in June I bought the Summer Special #1 with the 5.5 version of the rules)

I wouldn't want a gargantuan skill list, but nothing small either. How to find that happy medium between "Lockpicking Large Ugly Iron Locks With A Fork" and "thievery"? And also...how to keep it in the T&T "spirit" and feel?....
I've seen a couple of house-ruled skill sets/lists/rules, but not one that really stood out. There's also using the MS&PE system...

I know it isn't popular to use skills and seems very trendy and something all the youngin's are doin' (and years back I would have agreed, but I've changed)
However.
Are there any of you that do/have used skills in T&T? Successfully? How did you keep it quick and lite?
If so, what skills system/list/rules do you or did you use? Something pre-existing (as the case of MS&PE or something on the web) or your own?

I'd appreciate any help and advice on this matter. Lists, rules, websites, etc. very helpful as well.
Thanks.

[branderwydd /|\]

machfront~

welcome to the bridge. this may be something you are interested - in i just found it on another person's site yesterday. it is intended for 7e and is listed as 'talents' rather than 'skills', but it is a good starting place, i think.

www.geocities.com/~athorne/trolls/talents.htm

[mahrundl]

Welcome to the Trollbridge, Machfront!

[machfront]

Thanks for the welcomes.

branderwydd: Funny. I just saw that yesterday, myself. It was one of the ones I was thinking of when I wrote the first post. And when I saw it I actually just said: "Ah. 7th ed." and jus' passed on it. It's a good list and I would probably use it for just about anything else....but I wonder...is it a little too much for T&T?
This one here: www.angelfire.com/rpg2/ancientworlds/tntskills.html
Seems to have the right feel, but I can't help but feel that at least a few things are missing. Dunno about advantages and disadvantages....
This one: www.meetgamers.com/tandt/skills.html
is alright, but seems like perhaps too much?
I don't know, maybe it's all in my head.
See, I've never been good at designing and house-ruling and adding things and blah,blah,blah. So it's pretty much like I need something that's pretty much done for me.....hm...

But again, just as if not more so important is the feel and being lite of course. Also important to me is to hear from anyone that's done it and made it work while keepin' it easy and still able to retain the T&T spirit.