dalton
4th Level Troll
Posts: 282
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Post by dalton on Feb 4, 2007 15:59:42 GMT -5
Hi Gwindel,
It comes down to play style. My players and I like the type of game/story where the hero/heroes can dispatch three or four untrained/lower fighters/monsters without much die rolling but, where a battle between equals is a epic fight with the advantage going from one side to the other. What I did not like about T&T's combat was that it was a series of die rolls without the players feeling like they have any real control once battle was engaged, other than rolling dice and adding up the result. That is why you make decissions such as offensive vs defensive attacks combined with the idea of fatigue setting in vs. lots of little cuts.....
It all comes down to the gaming preferences. In my playtest, the players are faced with mostly minor battles, lots of puzzles and challenges with the evening cumulating in the players running from or out thinking an obviously superior opponent or fighting an epic battle against an evenly matched opponent.
With the rule of six, even a week opponent can be very dangerous.
Best regards
Dalton
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Post by Mhegrrrim Skulltosser on Feb 5, 2007 0:46:35 GMT -5
I do think T&T players have not utilized special combat tactics enough. Most of the time, the GM can rule on a SR Level to accomplish the specified deed.
For example: How might you accomplish this combat action?
"Ok, I hold back and blocks all blows looking for a weak point in his enemy's defense. Just when he starts to tire, I strike."
Regular combat? Special Saving Roll? Skill?
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Feb 5, 2007 3:20:48 GMT -5
I'll have to agree with talonfire that this is where SRs help in the area of combat. It doesn't have to be rolling die and adding numbers over and over. It can be cinematic, but that's up to the imaginations of those involved. In your example, talonfire....personally I wouldn't let a player get away with that for a SR. What out hypothetical player is describing there is exactly what the character would be doing naturally anyway. The nature of combat is to use your strengths and exploit the weaknesses of your enemy. That's a given. Now...if the player said: "I'm going to try to back away a bit to get some distance and when I get a spare second I want to reach down and grab some dirt and sling it into his eyes!", then I'd certainly let him roll a SR. That could certainly turn the tide, pro or con....and it makes it cinematic without any extra rules.
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dalton
4th Level Troll
Posts: 282
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Post by dalton on Feb 5, 2007 10:31:49 GMT -5
Well, if you have played the eposic.org/rpg/tnt/tnt-wizard-combat-prototype.php game, it is a simulation of T&T combat. It is not cinematic and it is an example of why the combat can be very boring for alot of players who are not experienced role players or new referee's. The system for a fighter has very few choices, while giving one or two more choices for those who are magically inclined. When it is automated, the die rolling is not too bad, but, when a balanced fight may easily go into 14-15 rounds of die rolling without any real decisions allowed for in the game rules, except for one off rulings, it gets boring. I hear that the extra rules are not needed, we just need to declare a special action or situation that is not described anywhere in the rules, come up with a talent or reason for the talent on the fly, decide upon it's difficulty and then make the roll, knowing full well that the outcome of the roll will change the standard rules for the situation......... For experienced role players, that is fine. For new players, it is a frustrating mess. Have you ever played monopoly or risk with a player who is constantly changing the rules? For a new rpg player, the lack of rules or too many variations on how things work is just as frustrating. For T&T, the original mechanic of roll a number of dice based upon your equipment, modified by your attributes worked well. Then Saving throws where brought in. Then Doubles roll again and add but only in certain situations Then Tripples roll again and add but only in certain situations Then count the sixes as pips for special stuff Then reroll the sixes as well as counting the sixes....... Depending upon the version, house rules, alternate rules, variations upon attributes (use strength to power spells, no use wiz to power spells) and various other rule changes within the solo adventures, it is a matter of not "HOW TO PLAY T&T" but a matter of "HOW DO YOU PLAY T&T". From a new gamers perspective, D20 is a real mess - no one in their right mind wants to spend the time to read the basic books let alone spend the time to game. T&T in it's non-hardcover small format has been a real lifesaver in getting new people to play. It has sold over 1000 copies and it is not even carried by most distributors in Canada - My FLGS can't even order it. From my perspective, I have modified the rules in order to cater to my play group, as all the players on this board have done over time. Some are a wee bit more obsessive-compulsive when they go about it (I learned mold casting and air brush artistry when I got into mini-gaming) but overall, it is because we love the style of game this genre promotes as well as the ability to let our imaginations run free. I am mapping out a world that is 10 times larger than all of continental Asia, and that is only the surface, forget the blade wall itself. I have 51 intelligent races that are all unique from most fantasy worlds as well as various bits of fiction and background stories. I have created a set of game mechanics and the mock-up models for an aerial combat system between the goblin air-barges, the elven flying crystal ships and the dwarven dirigibles. I am currently working on a skirmish level miniature game in the ruined city of ven'kroolsen, which has meant that I have had to carve/create a modular ruined building system that I am now using silicone and liquid resin to create........ So, when I see others coming up with their own system, I immediately think "Wow, another nutbar just like me" I am hoping that when my server is finished, I will be able to put up all my rules, sketches, drawings and background, as well as a place for others to post theirs. It will never make me any money, but at least it is a way to share back with all the people who have given me ideas over the years..... Hey maybe someone will pay for it - anyone interested in a "Shard" rpg??? best regards Dalton
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Feb 5, 2007 11:40:02 GMT -5
For example: How might you accomplish this combat action? "Ok, I hold back and blocks all blows looking for a weak point in his enemy's defense. Just when he starts to tire, I strike." Regular combat? Special Saving Roll? Skill? Definetely Saving Rolls, IMHO the basic feature in combat is not what you call "regular combat", but the use of SRs. "Regular combat" is just the default option when two fighters bang at each others without trying anything fancy (and it is a wonderful tool for NPCs against NPCs or groups fights); which statistically ends with the weaker one dead.
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Post by mahrundl on Feb 5, 2007 15:03:19 GMT -5
Dalton,
Ultimately, whether combat is boring is up to the players and the GM. Yes, combats can be very boring if you just roll the dice and calculate the damage.
This is a game of the imagination - the dice rolls are just there to provide some randomness and variety to a mechanical process. The players should describe what they are doing, the GM should decide how that will impact on the base combat rolls, if at all, and describe the outcome. In both 5th and 7th edition, the combat examples have flavour text. It describes the effects on the characters, and their reactions to those effects, that the combat is happening. Harder for a new GM and players, but that's true for any system.
The Eposic combat simulator is a good example of why solo play is less satisfying than group play. There is little to do but roll the combat dice, save the couple of spell choices of the engine. It doesn't reflect on failings of the combat system so much as it does on the lack of a GM. (No disrespect to Khaydhaik either - I think he's done a fantastic job there!)
There are systems that pretty much detail exactly who steps where, which tendon is cut, and the physiological effects of the pressure of your armour. Personally, I think that is far more boring than the T & T method, as well as being harder for beginners. Rolemaster, anyone?
7th edition has complicated things over 5th. The new ideas are interesting, but for new players, 5th edition is probably a better introduction. For experienced players? I think that it would depend on the players.
Gotta go, these were just some quick thoughts.
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Feb 5, 2007 16:41:25 GMT -5
There are systems that pretty much detail exactly who steps where, which tendon is cut, and the physiological effects of the pressure of your armour. Personally, I think that is far more boring than the T & T method, as well as being harder for beginners. Rolemaster, anyone? I think that T&T can provide more details and flavour than Rolemaster (or any "closed" system) can do. But the problem is that it shift the work of providing that detail from the rules to the gamemaster. And it can be difficult at first to go from "roll the dice and the GM shall look the result in the rules (Rolemaster kind of game)" to "do what you want, the GM shall make it fit in the system (T&T)". More freedom for the players, but not always easy for the GM.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Feb 5, 2007 17:23:45 GMT -5
There are systems that pretty much detail exactly who steps where, which tendon is cut, and the physiological effects of the pressure of your armour. Personally, I think that is far more boring than the T & T method, as well as being harder for beginners. Rolemaster, anyone? I think that T&T can provide more details and flavour than Rolemaster (or any "closed" system) can do. But the problem is that it shift the work of providing that detail from the rules to the gamemaster. And it can be difficult at first to go from "roll the dice and the GM shall look the result in the rules (Rolemaster kind of game)" to "do what you want, the GM shall make it fit in the system (T&T)". More freedom for the players, but not always easy for the GM. Agreed. The beauty of an "open system" is that it's...well...open. But if the players are unexperienced or simply don't know or understand what sort of options they truly have, then someone will simply have to explain that their options are open. Give them plenty of examples. Tell them that if they, at some point, want to drop their weapon and rush and tackle their opponent, they can. Etc.,etc. Once folks, however unexperienced or unimaginative, try a couple of those things a couple of times, later in play as things get heavy or tense or exciting, they'll be swept away by the heat of the moment and blurt out something that they, or rather their character, wishes to do. Heck. It might not be a bad idea to very easily make up a short list of combat tactics or what-have-you as nothing more than examples. That might get their imaginations going. Failing that, there are plenty of great games that have these sorts of options "built-in". IMHO D&D does this best since it truly is built-in deep down, but I would still choose something like Savage Worlds, as the options are right there, but not a laundry list and it (the system of Savage Worlds) still remains open and very cinematic, and still doesn't get bogged down with endless "closed" charts and modifiers and the like... This is the reason I like skills and a set skill list. It gives folks a "starting point" and options and differentiates their character from being a "1st level warrior" or whatever. It opens up their imaginations and allows them to know, be they experienced or no, that there are many things that their character can not only do, but also do well. (IMO), but YMMV.
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Feb 5, 2007 17:52:34 GMT -5
I certainly agree that if you want your players to go beyond dice rolling, you have to show them that it is possible. But it is also very rewarding, because their characters tend to develop a personnal style of fighting. It can be very fun to watch. A good way to show them what is possible is, for exemple, locking them in a deserted tower (or island, or ship...) with a bunch of patheticaly weak NPCs, but who are using smart tactics and who don't fight fair (because they would lose if they did).
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khaydhaik
4th Level Troll
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Post by khaydhaik on Feb 6, 2007 2:09:13 GMT -5
I do think T&T players have not utilized special combat tactics enough. Most of the time, the GM can rule on a SR Level to accomplish the specified deed. For example: How might you accomplish this combat action? "Ok, I hold back and blocks all blows looking for a weak point in his enemy's defense. Just when he starts to tire, I strike." Regular combat? Special Saving Roll? Skill? In that situation, I would have the character roll a SR on INT or LK and I'd roll a SR for the opponent. If the PC's SR is of a higher level, I'd give the PC extra dice equal to the difference in the levels of the two SRs. If the opponent's SR is of a higher level, I'd give the extra dice to the opponent, because the opponent saw through the ruse and was able to turn things around on the PC. If they are both the same level of SR, then no one gets any extra dice.
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khaydhaik
4th Level Troll
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Post by khaydhaik on Feb 6, 2007 3:06:24 GMT -5
Mahrundl, I have to agree with you about the Eposic combat simulator. It is to me as well a reflection on the lack of a GM. For instance, the Slush Yuck spell as it is implemented is pretty worthless in the game. I intend to change it some time to give a chance at an instant kill, rather than merely making the monster's attack weaker. (I mean, let's face it, the Slush Yuck spell's description does not spell out what it's effects should be in combat, so the GM must come up with his own rulings for it.)
That sort of change is something that a GM could do on the fly without any problem. Whereas with the program, the change has to wait for me to take the time to make the change to the code, and once I do make the change, it will be stuck that way, inflexible in its process once again, for an indeterminate amount of time.
I do think T&T could benefit from some standard rules concerning Defensive fighting, Pressing an Attack (especially aggressive fighting, not the same as berserker fighting), and maybe even All-Out Attack and All-Out Defense options. But implementing those sorts of options in T&T can make for more dice rolls and more summing up of those dice if you aren't careful with how you implement them.
Dalton, I need to go back and review your Realms rules again. I wish they were all available in book form. I'm much better with books when it comes to remembering rules and knowing where to find rules that I've forgotten or don't quite remember. I think you have some rules for these sort of combat options, right? I just can't remember how they work right now...
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dalton
4th Level Troll
Posts: 282
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Post by dalton on Feb 6, 2007 6:46:53 GMT -5
Hey khaydhaik,
My current playtest rules are very different from the ones that I had posted earlier on the forums.
I am putting them into book form, but I have alot more work to do before they are finished. Most of that work is in playtesting. I am right now coding a combat simulator for the shard system, similar to your T&T one.
My current rules fit on three pages, not including equipment or monster lists. That covers character creation, combat, monsters and purchasing equipment.
You can see a glimpse of where I currently am in the rules by looking in this thread at response #24, #26 and #28.
Send me a pm and I will go over the design with you if you wish.
best regards
Dalton
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khaydhaik
4th Level Troll
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Post by khaydhaik on Feb 7, 2007 0:58:55 GMT -5
OK, dalton, I found your post about Offensive, Defensive, Maneuver, and Special Attacks. I think standard T&T could benefit from having some similar concepts...
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dalton
4th Level Troll
Posts: 282
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Post by dalton on Feb 7, 2007 11:34:45 GMT -5
Hey khaydhaik,
I have posted the first bit of my solo rules on my Dalton's home rules thread.
I am thinking of dropping that thread and reposting with the current version that we are currently playing with.
The original thread has become far too long for most people to get a good handle on what is happening.
That and the fact that most of the background story has grown exponentially since the first postings.
My players have just finished a trade caravan to the "AEorlean-Silleakean" (Elven for city of the seventh brother of Keonsol-Lensorki). The desert elves live on giant magically modified sloths. The creatures are gargantuan in proportion, holding between 12-14 buildings, made of cultured crystal and intertwined modified plants. A elven desert city is comprised of 40-60 such great beasts plus young as they travel from oasis to oasis. The sloth type creatures move extreamly slowly, but they do move, making a journey to such a city, very hard to do (as you never really know where it will be).
The desert elves dress like beduin nomads, with silk clothes and clothing grown from plants. They do not use metal, as they use crystals with interwoven living plants for their weapons and tools.
They modify all creatures to suit thier needs, thus the creation of creatures such as the orcs, oarlocks, fairies, beastmen, ogres and more creatures than I can imagine (and that is alot).
The desert elves are the closest to a surviving elven kingdom, and are but one of the three distinct elven cultures to survive the forth age into the beginning of the fifth. They are found on the blades edge desert that is on the outside edge of Shards Hammerfall plateau.
They are under constant raid from the flying goblin barge ships and the dwarven trade dirigibles, as both races have not stopped fighting the wars of the third age.
The players have not gotten closer than a league to the city, as they sit in silk tents with the elven delegations, while the elven axe-beak mounts (think ostriches with the beak of a parrot) are tethered outside.
The elves have many spices and herbs that only grow on the back of the "Ll Ll eeandenerrr" (giant sloths - man was that a hard one to pronounce to the players - let that be a lesson to you when using random word generators to create alot of the atmosphere) The elves supplement their diets with catching birds who live on the blades edge or the many "Ll'sterr nelium" (flying giant worms who feed on the flocks of birds like a whale feeds upon krill)
The players don't know it but they have been sent to get various herbs and magical parts so that a local wizard can prepare himself for the trek to Ven'Kroolsen.
As you can see, the world building and rule tweaking are progressing hand in hand.
best regards
Dalton
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khaydhaik
4th Level Troll
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Post by khaydhaik on Feb 8, 2007 1:25:38 GMT -5
That all sounds right clever, dalton. You've quite an imagination. Hopefully all of your work will see it into print some day. If it does get into book form, I'll be waiting to snatch a copy.
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