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Post by skathros on Jan 21, 2007 9:24:09 GMT -5
First off, let me start by saying "Welcome machfront!"
Although somewhat presssed for time at the moment, i've worked out a skill system based on the RC/AD&D for use with T&T. When i get home later this afternoon, i'll post it up on my site (still heavely under construction) and post a link to it in this thread.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jan 21, 2007 11:28:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome, skathros! Hey, man...that'll be great. Mighty kind of you.
I've just spent the last three and half hours scouring the net for T&T house rules and skill systems.... You know what I've learned these past few days of doing this sort of thing? I swear....of all things in Netdom, it's got to be Tunnels & Trolls that holds the distinction of Most Broken Links for Any Subject Searched. Nothing I've looked for on the internet....ever....have I ever come across as many dead/abandoned/gone/nonexistant web sites.
Pity really.
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Jan 21, 2007 17:02:41 GMT -5
Did you check the links with the wayback machine. Sometimes you can find old version of sites that are not available anymore. Just an idea.. www.archive.org/index.php
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khaydhaik
4th Level Troll
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Post by khaydhaik on Jan 21, 2007 22:59:32 GMT -5
Welcome, machfront!
If you want to keep the rules lite but still use skills / talents, then what you do is just not have a hard and fast list, but make the skills / talents up as you go. Start with a name for the skill / talent, and then the GM and players can discuss what their expectations are for it. It's in the game from then on. The GM can write up the details of the skill / talent if desired, or the GM can simply make a ruling each time the skill / talent is used, as best fits the campaign.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jan 22, 2007 11:18:52 GMT -5
gwindel: Thanks for the suggestion. I actually hadn't thought of that, though I knew of the archive. It was always one of those things I meant to find the link to....one of those 'get around to it' things. Thankfully I was able to finally see some of those sites. khaydhaik: I thought of that, but honestly I actually would like a good list of say 20 or 30 skills. But at any rate, even if I chose to go the route you suggest, I still need a good idea of what way to implement it all. What "system". How many points or how many skills? How to advance the skills? Let the skills be an add to a SR or...something else? Let the skills stand "alone" or have them tied to a specific attribute? Or have them tied to an attribute and modified by another (as in Wildblades "Delving Into Skills" portion of the that site? ..... Still got lots to think about. Who knew it would/could be so hard to make something simple, lite and quick?
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Jan 22, 2007 19:28:26 GMT -5
machfront: Personally, I use the talent rules in T&T 7. Those rules describe how a talent is based on an attribute, how to increase it over time, how to gain additional talents, and that the use of a talent always requires a SR. The way that talent levels advance too rapidly may be considered unbalancing, but that's why I tend to use very narrow talents. A character can get highly skilled, but it only applies in very specific situations.
There's also the skill system in T&T 5.5, towards the end of the book, though I haven't used it. Did you give it a look-over?
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jan 22, 2007 23:47:10 GMT -5
I did. As much as I like Mike Stackpole's work for T&T and MS&PE and other things, this particular section (originally a Sorcerer's Apprentice article), actually isn't very well written and kind of unclear on a few points. I like that the skills have experience points themselves and go up a "level" themselves following the same level table as characters do. That's simple enough. The skill list itself is terrible, but that can be easily overcome.
I'll have to read over it again. I can't remember what it was that seemed odd and/or unclear...
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jan 31, 2007 17:13:48 GMT -5
I still trying to make that perfect skill list. Harder than I thought. It's really giving me a headache. What to have, what not to have,etc. I ended up just grabbing a half dozen or so rules-lite games with skills and putting every single thing down on a list. Then struck the ones that were the same or very close, then consolidated those that were pretty similar........and ended up with a list of 55. *groan* So, then I tried to trim that down, and was making some decent headway (putting things like Acting, Dance, Musical Instrument into one skill called Performance...things like that....), but somehow, while doing that....I ended up adding about 5 more, not total, but adding new ones. This of course pretty much negated what I had done with the "fat-trimming" up to that point.
I had no idea it would be this much of a bother. But I can't help it. I could easily port this or that skill list from Game A or Game B, but now that I've seen so many of them closely side by side, I can see what's missing and what's wrong with each one....argh. The last thing I wanted was something big and weighty. But then....I can't , for instance, bring myself to put Move Silently(choose urban or rural) and Concealment(choose urban or rural) into just: Stealth. I don't know why, but my brain won't let me....."they're all different enough that they should be separate..", my brain says, "...remember how different it is when you're hunting then when you're sneaking around on the property at work or through a house, etc. ......" *sigh*
And when is something simply a "Knowledge" skill (...choose type... you guys know what I mean..)? Is Poisons something that stands on it's own, or is it a "Knowledge" skill? How to define "Knowledge"? Is it an area of study? Book-learning? Or something that's also directly physically applicable?
Why am I thinking like this for something as fun and airy and lite as T&T? Why am I getting so deep into this? Why do people listen to modern pop? When will my FLGS sell anything other than D20?
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Feb 2, 2007 0:03:33 GMT -5
Well, your post, machfront, has helped me to understand why Ken didn't bother to add lists of talents to 7th edition.
I think the talent system in 7th edition has a lot going for it. If you have a talent, and if it applies to a situation in which you need to make a SR, you use the talent instead of the attribute. The talent doesn't really give you extra abilities. It just makes it easier to do what you could try to do anyway.
Doing things the 7th edition way, all you really need for a talent is a descriptive name and the attribute it's based on (so you can determine it's initial value). If the descriptive name is not enough for the GM to determine when the talent is usable, then you can jot down a brief description to help clarify it.
I have in the past written out lots of details about a set of talents, describing exactly when the talent can be used and what level of SR is needed to do this or that or the other, and it just gets way too rules heavy. You have to go looking up rules for the talents when you want to use them, and that's the sort of thing that I just hate to do, and I hate it when players insist that a rule be looked up during game play (even though I have in the past been guilty of that very behavior). Having too many rules only encourages that sort of fun-killing behavior.
If a talent is simply a descriptive name and a number, then it's clear that the talent must be interpreted by the GM as to when it can be used. No funky rules to get in the way. The GM makes a ruling, and the player can't start quoting rules or asking to look things up, because there's nothing to look up. The best the player can do is to explain the intent of the talent when taking it, and to get help from the GM to come up with a meaningful name, rather than taking the name from some pre-determined list made up by someone not involved in the GM's campaign.
Of course, if a GM wants to make up a list of pre-determined talent names for his campaign, that's fine. And if a GM wants to make up rules for all those talents, that's fine. And if such a GM wants to share those talents with other GMs, that's great. But any supposed all-encompassing list of talents (skills) is probably going to be unsatisfactory to almost all GMs, including the GM that made up the list originally. And that's why I just make them up as I go.
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dalton
4th Level Troll
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Post by dalton on Feb 2, 2007 18:14:31 GMT -5
Well, I have been fighting with the complexity vs ease of play balance for a while now.
I have been working on my home rules for a while now, with a great deal of difficulty.
It is not easy, for you keep wanting to put in a rule to cover situations that may never come up in play. In other times you want to be clear or deal with the comment from a player from years earlier.
I went to the point of layered skills. For example, I have a skill called "entertainer" which is close to your "performance" talent. I then have a dance skill which is a refinement of entertainer. For skills I have "Fighter", "Trademan", "Merchant", "Thief", "Academic", "Entertainer", "Holy Man", "Wizard" Each such selection has further sub-skills such as "Light Armour Use" for the fighter skill or "Cantrips" for the Wizard skill
It means that the skills are centered upon the profession of the base skills, while the sub-skills may be used under two or more main skills. (such as thieves also learning combat skills)
I allow any player to learn any skill or combination of skills, but they are bought with level points, so it takes a bit of delving before multi-classes start to show up.
I also dropped all the extra attributes so I only have four, Str, Dex, Int, Chr. Humans have a level of 1D6+2 for each attribute, while Dwarves are 1D6+4 for Str but 1D6 for Dex, while Elves are 1D6+3 for Dex and Chr while they are 1D6 +1 for Str and Int
Net result is that it takes four rolls and under 3 minutes to start to play.
I am debating how much to post here. I can post the final product, or I can post the process including the results from the play testing.
I can say that no matter what method used, it is a hard process coming up with a full game. Kudos and an exhalt for even trying.
best regards
Dalton
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Feb 3, 2007 4:15:17 GMT -5
dalton: Thank you, sir. I've seen your many posts as to what you've done for your own version of the game and as far removed from T&T it is, I really like it. I certainly would not have the mindset to do all that! I'll confess that I dig T&T as it is in 5.5, but I wish there was a skill list. For me, personally, that's all that's lacking. I know that it could very easily be discussed between player and GM and the skills come up with "on the fly" as needed as suggested by khaydhaik, but I'd just really like something "there". The reason simply being that that can make it easier for me and for some other folks to just choose a few things that appeal. If for some reason, exactly what they want is not there, it's still easy enough to find something close or come up with one. But if most of the bases are covered by a pre-existing list, that lessens the chances of that. As I said, I wanted it to be kept quick and easy and simple to at least reside near the feel of T&T. And that's been the difficult part. I'm probably the one making it harder on myself. I'm making headway. Soon I hope to have the list down to a good, solid core of maybe 25 that should still cover everything that was in my original list of 55. Since I'm "consolidating" them, those other 30 skills won't be gone, they will still be there, covered by the remaining 25. I don't think, though others may disagree, that 25 is a "laundry list" of skills. In keeping it simple, I suppose what I'll do is at character creation the skills can be gained in place of languages that would normally be gained, if the player chooses. Keeping it easy in play would mean, to me, that the skill would simply be an "add" to a SR. If one put one "skill point" in, say, Intrusion/Lock Picking, then it's simply an extra +1 add to the SR, two points put into the skill would be a +2,etc. I like Stackpole's suggestion of skill advancement, so that's probably what I'd use. Everytime the skill is used, 50 points of XPs are put forward for the skill itself. The skill accumulates enough XPs until it advances to the next level as per the character level-advancement chart. I don't think that this would really be that much book-keeping at all, if any. But of course, as all T&T house rules, YMMV.
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dalton
4th Level Troll
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Post by dalton on Feb 3, 2007 10:09:03 GMT -5
Hey Machfront,
My current version is again far and away different from what I have posted here.
For example, a way back I posted my monster rules, with the idea that MR's are not used anymore.
I use "Threat", "Challenge" or "Difficulty" Levels which all work the same way.
You roll a number of dice equal to the threat level plus one, with a bonus equal to the threat level.
So, a threat level 0 would have 1d6 to roll while a threat level 2 have 3d6+2.
I got rid of constitution and hit points and replaced them with fatigue and wounds.
You start with zero fatigue and accumulate fatigue everytime you fail at something or do something that causes automatic fatigue.
You can reduce fatigue either through spells, rest, food etc.
Every roll you make, regardless of type, is reduced by your fatigue.
So a creature with a threat level of 5 but with 10 points of fatigue, rolls 6d6-5 (6d6+5-10)
If you are using a talent or ability without a corresponding skill or talent lets you roll dice based upon your attribute as a threat level. Don't worry, I changed the attribute levels so they are in the 0-15 range with a starting human, having attributes that are based upon 1d6+2 (3-8).
In combat, you can declare one of the following actions per round
Offensive Attack (Every pip you roll is used to harm your opponent) Defensive Attack (Every pip you roll is used to increase your strength) Maneuver Attack (Every pip you roll is saved until the next round to be used as extra dice) Special Attack (you may declare an attack using a special ability from a skill or talent - the rules for the skill or talent applies)
No effect CE <= Str. Push Back CE > Str. but CE <= Str. + Armour Staggered CE > Str.+ Armour but CE <= Str+Dex+Armour Stunned CE > Str+Dex+Armour but CE <= Str+Dex+Int+Armour Wounded CE > Str+Dex+Int+Armour but CE <= Str+Dex+Int+Chr+Armour Killed CE > Str+Dex+Int+Chr+Armour
Wounds reduce a characters attributes (recieving player decides which one) or they reduce the monsters threat level dirrectly.
The net result is that the characters fight, tiring each other out until a final blow is done or both collapse due to exhaustion.
It turns out to be very dramatic in play.
Just a few things to think about.
best regards
Dalton
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Feb 3, 2007 15:32:58 GMT -5
dalton: That's nice. The first time I read it through, I thought "that's too much for me", but when I read over it again, I figured "actually that probably would play out quickly and easily".
Have you actually finished your game? If so, or not, do you have a website up for it? If no, you should.
As for myself and this skill thing. I'm wondering now if I went about it the wrong way...or rather the wrong direction, wrong end. As I said, I started with a large all-inclusive list and then tried to pare it down and conglomerate very similar things.
Perhaps what I should have done was to make an extremely general skill list and then, after much thought as to whether certain things absolutely could not be covered by those existing, then and only then, add the new skill. That is to say (if I didn't make myself clear), if there was a list of ten skills....and I thought of say...I dunno...Etiquette... then after analyzing the list and determining that not a single skill can I make a case for covering etiquette, then I add it to the list, but only then.
That's how I should have done it. In that mindset it probably would have taken a lot of work to make the skill list grow (too) large. Instead of where I am now, not wanting to "lose" skills.....
I might need to start over again. Argh! -lol-
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dalton
4th Level Troll
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Post by dalton on Feb 4, 2007 11:45:10 GMT -5
Hi Machfront,
The design came from the need to get players, playing quickly. If it takes a degree to create a character or uses tons of die rolls before they can play their first game, most players go back to other games or the tv remote. Teenagers and kids are willing to learn game basics but, once you have a couple of kids, a mortgage and the stresses of full-time work, it is easier to spend $50 on a video game or watch the latest in mindless tv.
I have been getting new players to play. but after getting the first "cherry pick" players into the game (those who used to play years ago) it was getting harder and harder as their eyes glazed over with the rule complexity.
So, I dropped alot of the attributes as they could be covered by the four I kept.
I got rid of hit points and constitution, but added fatigue. I kept the abstract 30 second combat round, dropping alot of the useless detail work that D20 causes while having the pushback/knockdown/stun rules built into the basic mechanic.
The wound rule causes the player to reduce one of their attributes by 1. Such wounds have to be healed, and there is no guarantee that the wound can be healed. This leads to players getting limps (reduced dex) scars (reduced char) brain damage (reduced int) and crippled (reduced str). Wounds against monsters reduce their threat level, making them easier to fight, or even having them run away.
As the combats between uneven foes are very quick, but between even foes, they can be very long and drawn out, it leads to a very cinematic feel.
So, the game design came down to a full analysis of what I wanted the game to be like and who it was to appeal to. From there, I started the razor test on every rule and played out many different mechanics with some buddies of mine.
Most of the rules are finished, but need editing.
Right now I am working on the races, cultures and political structures.
I am concentrating upon the newly found city of Ven'Kroolsen. This is a large ruined magical city that has every power group and mercenary trying to pilliage. Over the city you will find dwarven dirigibles and the goblin floating barges. You have trollish clan moots and felin scavenger bands dealing with human raiders from nine different kingdoms. So it is a large 3d dungeon with ruined castles on floating islands hanging above citadels both large and small.
So, it is working well, but it is alot of work.
I am thinking of posting the whole thing of giving it to "that guy" for him to publish.
Anyways, with your own skill project, you need to first decide why you need the list and who is going to use it. You need to put a fun meter on any rule - if it does not create fun for the players, it will do nothing but drive players away.
I will leave you with one short note on one of the races I am working on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Felids. "... Tall. Immensely muscled. Feline in nature. They double the height of the tallest man and most dwarves only approach what would on a human model be there knees. They reside on the border between the deserts of the cap and the grassy expanses that lead to the high jungles. There they hunt their ancestral prey and reclude to dens fashioned after primal man's architecture. It is assumed that after the magic changed them from four-legged speechless predators to what they are, they discovered ancient ruins of man and used the foundations again. Whatever their original purpose was, the sorcerors who shaped the feral civilization were forced to free their thralls. From then on they've ecked out an existence on the circular track of grass and dunes. They had help with their cultural upbringing though - Elves helped them tame magic and shape their weapons of predation. Mighty bows capable of piercing the sandwyrms hide are a regular site, and walking staffs upwardly tipped with slender but strong blades act as spears. They can cast them beyong sight with their farseeing vision, a gift from their bestial ancestors. Both sexes of the specie govern and hunt together, and enjoy what seems like a communal feast and abode. Pairs, whether thay be monogomous or not is yet to be discovered, can be seen striding off into the dunes for the hunt, water skins and quivers of "mansized" spears with fletching bouncing on their backs. It is interesting to note that observed when stalking, the Felids revert to a four-legged approach, then spring into the air and loose their missles at unsuspecting masses of antelope, gougebeasts and smaller equine prey. They tend to hunt the massed animals, a tribute I suspect to their ancesters method of selection. Felids occasionally reside in the high jungles as well, where geographical color variations take place. Pure Black and Mottled versions of their jungle living cousins are a contrast to the sandy beige and striped coats we see on the grasslands. The culture remains congruent with both populations, and a peaceful meeting often takes place for trade. But where tolerance ends is when humans enter their domain. Seen as destroyers of nature, perversions of the ape-kind... Humans will be hunted and left for carrion. No Felid will eat of such an unsavoury specie. Occasionally a Human hunting party will stumble across a settlement. And being of the greedy mindset so common in man, will try to enslave of slay the inhabitants for trophies and entertainment. Dwarves rightly fear the Felids too, for their obvious disadvantage of height. But a psycological effect plays in a dwarves' mind as well upon seeing the hunters roaming. There was a time when the ancestors would enter caves and prey on young dwarven colonies. There is also the freedom that baffles the dwarven mind, the wild, unstructured way of the Felids. Elves enjoy a common bond with the specie. They've earned trust and alliance with the walking cats by providing lore and magical instruction. They regularly trade components arcane and have resolved to offer gifts upon meeting. It has been documented that elves have re-inforced Felid communities in times of war and likewise have requested help in the Elven caravans. There have even been rumors of hybrids between the two specie, but science dictates this as impossible..."
------------------------------------------------------------------ best regards
Dalton
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Feb 4, 2007 14:40:38 GMT -5
As the combats between uneven foes are very quick, but between even foes, they can be very long and drawn out, it leads to a very cinematic feel. Not that I want to nitpick, but it has always been one of the features of T&T. The drawn out fights between equals opponents have been one of critics the most frequently leveled at T&T rules; and one of the features that have attracted the biggest number of "fixes" an alternate rules by different peoples (even by Ken if I remember correctly).
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