horsa
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 61
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Post by horsa on Feb 6, 2008 10:54:04 GMT -5
The very fact that the most famous Book on earth was written in several different languages: English Sindarin Quenya ValinoreanFixed that for you. Actually most of the Red Book was written in Westron then translated into English. What scare me is the thought of a Tsolyanu translation.... Talk about a nightmare of a language, 32 (or is it 36?) forms of the second person pronoun rendered in English as "you". BTW the Book of Ebon makes a great reference if you can find a copy. EPT would be an interesting world to run in T&T. As for Kult, that is a truly great horror game, better than CoC for generating actual horror, although De Profundis is potentially scarier. Personally I am not a big fan of horror mechanics. I think it is better left to atmosphere and story telling. However not all players are willing to enter into this spirit.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Feb 6, 2008 13:22:39 GMT -5
Preach it Horsa! My players turn EVERYTHING into a Terry Pratchett/Terry Gilliam crossover production. There was one idiot I recall who (upon finding himself in one of those Quaint New England Towns Hiding a Secret) summoned Things from Beyond to destroy the entire town! No subtlety, no concern for innocent lives, no common sense... Too bad that Secret turned out to be plans to buy the next town's Football team and build them a new stadium. Methinks I shall keep them safely confined in a T&T game until the PLAYERS develop a Sanity Score...
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Feb 6, 2008 15:39:46 GMT -5
What scare me is the thought of a Tsolyanu translation.... Talk about a nightmare of a language, 32 (or is it 36?) forms of the second person pronoun rendered in English as "you". Cha! The Tsolyani are just really, really polite, you know? Which is why I've been working on my conversion notes... BTW the text you're thinking of is The Book Of Ebon Bindings, which is pretty much the equivalent of the Goetia for Tekumel. An interesting read - about 1/3 descriptions of horrible Lovecraftian demonic entities, 1/3 how to summon them and 1/3 why summoning them is a really, really bad idea.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Feb 7, 2008 10:32:07 GMT -5
Hey, Fenris - check out T&T 4th. Summoning is only a 7th Level spell in that edition - only 25 STR and 3000 GP necessary for your warm bathwater and nekkid chixxors!! Ooh, I LIKE T&T 4th. Well, it looks my online time, especially at work, is taking a serious hit... "busy season" is starting a bit early, and Bosses are hovering around me like Vultures over a dying man in the desert. Sigh. Oh well, it's been fun. In brief then, I have neither 4e nor 5e in front of me, but I remember reading that 5e made some changes in the spellbook in the name of "balance" (balance in T&T? bleh! I'd rather make my own balance! Besides, good stories don't need "balance," but I digress, as usual).... Anyway, I see you're making up some Solomonic-type Summoning spells, which I think is a great idea... in fact, those would likely form much of the basis of a "dark fantasy" universe like the one I'm slowly building in my head. Here's a suggestion: Why not have both? Instead of assuming that the 5e version of Summoning is the same one (as the 4e version), could it be a higher level version? Thus, the 4e version of Summoning (Summoning I ? ) would still exist, but have additional limits and/or limitations not in the higher level version (optionally, you may wish to alter Summoning II, instead). Due to time and work restraints, I cannot go into any further detail here, but I may not need to. Once you look at the idea, you'll probably take it in your own direction. Summoning I may call a lesser type of creature, or mundane creatures only, or whatever works. Don't forget there's also Invisible Fiend, which is clearly some sort of demonic entity, also. One presumes that if the proper spell were cast, the Invisible Fiend would become quite visible (if only to the caster), and that would not be a good thing....
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Feb 10, 2008 21:17:30 GMT -5
This may seem a bit off-topic, but it's closely related. It deals with "fear rolls" but in non-horror-based fantasy worlds. The question is, what is terror? How terrifying does an event need to be to justify a roll that might limit PC actions?
Okay, here's the impetus of the question. I'm am (right now) watching what is arguably the worst of the Harryhausen Sinbad movies, 7th Voyage of Sinbad.** The PCs are on the island (for the second time), and are in the process of being captured by the Cyclops, as they are pilfering through his treasure trove.
As I was watching the scene, I realized that if I was one of those men, and that giant monster just tore the roof off the building I'm in, and was reaching in with his scaly paw to grab me (and likely even more so if I was the second guy to be grabbed), I would be pissing in my pants. And yet, your standard RPG Heroes deal with monsters and situations of that type all the time. They just draw their swords and get to fighting as if this terrying beast were nothing more than a video game boss that will disappear into a puff of a point value if they can only hit it enough times before it can hit them back.
Somehow, the terror of the moment seems lost. Should it be? Is "forcing fear" on them detracting to the game? (This assumes that the game is Heroic Fantasy, not Horror). And while we've all generally agreed that a SR can be made on IQ, or a new attribute could be created, no consensus has been reached on what the effects of a failed SR could be, or how to determine them.
I'd love to hear some feedback. Some monsters, for example human-sized monsters, I can understand not causing fear in people. But monsters of large size (and especially non-human in appearance and ferocity) should likely cause some sort of terror, I would assume. Or should they? And if so, what should be fair yet realistic results of the roll, even if it's the realism of Heroic Fantasy?
**EDIT: Opinion Alert! I've now watched all three of the Harryhausen Sinbad movies, and I now feel that statement was wrong. Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger is by far the worst of the three, imho. 7th Voyage is actually fairly pleasant, for a movie with a frat boy as Sinbad.
Golden Voyage of Sinbad not only comes out as my favorite in the series, but one of my favorite movies ever.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Feb 10, 2008 22:24:05 GMT -5
Hmmmm...
I suppose it depends on the genre you're emulating with T&T-I mean you can do quite a bit of different Fantasy styles with it. Lovecraft's protagonists invariably wet themselves and sometimes went mad, Wellman's s felt the icy chill of terror but toughed it out, Conan dealt with the Thing in The Tower of the Elephant as an equal, Solomon Kane stared the most fearsome beings in the eye and never blinked...and then there was Clark Ashton Smith's wizard Eibon, who was pretty much on "high-five!" terms with Tsthogghua and browsed strange alien dimensions for breakfast!
I don't think T&T needs a Fear mechanic unless the PCs are expected to be terrified-if you're telling a story about Heroes, just let them be what the Players decide to be. If you're going into Dark Fantasy territory, you'll need to impress the Players, not the characters...and by Impress I don't mean terrify or even creep out, just get them immersed in the awe and wonder of the setting, the rest will follow!
I talk a good game...but given my Group, it's rare that I actually achieve that sort of thing in Actual Play. Of course, my Players don't like Horror!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Feb 10, 2008 22:59:00 GMT -5
I suppose it depends on the genre you're emulating with T&T-I mean you can do quite a bit of different Fantasy styles with it. Lovecraft's protagonists invariably wet themselves and sometimes went mad, Wellman's s felt the icy chill of terror but toughed it out, Conan dealt with the Thing in The Tower of the Elephant as an equal, Solomon Kane stared the most fearsome beings in the eye and never blinked...and then there was Clark Ashton Smith's wizard Eibon, who was pretty much on "high-five!" terms with Tsthogghua and browsed strange alien dimensions for breakfast! What can I say, I guess I'm just a coward, because I would be scared sh!tless. I guess that's why those guys are heroes and I'm sitting in front of a computer typing on a chat board. Of course, others may still reply with other thoughts on the matter, but while I'm waiting, here's a thought: Could an SR to be afraid (or not) be tied to level? I noticed in your post that each of these tough-guys you mentioned were Heroes that had been around the block, if not the whole countryside, at least a few times. Perhaps it might be that the idea of being picked up by a Cyclops so you can be roasted alive for it's dinner is only terrifying for so long... after a while, it just becomes "old helm." "Oh, ho-hum, another Cyclops that's going to tie me to a post and roast my flesh. Bor-ing! Can't these Cyclopses Cyclopsi Cyclopedia ever do anything else? So, hmm, how shall I escape it this time? Perhaps I'll outwit the monster, since the last time I outfought it and the time before that I outran it. Yeah, I'll outwit this time." With this idea, the GM could rule that an SR would be required, but higher level characters would have to make lower level SRs, or something like that (I have no idea what the mechanic would be at this point). This idea could also be interesting because it would make more experienced Heroes less likely to be affected than new Heroes (specifically, in a mixed group). For example, the Indiana's would be less likely to be affected while the Peruvian Guides most likely would be. How's that sound, so far?
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Feb 11, 2008 12:18:34 GMT -5
That could work. I suggest CON as a baseline SR if you don't want to do any serious stat-modding(i've always ruled CON as both physical and mental toughness-how else can you explain a ST 5 CN 22 Hobbit?). Using CON will tend to give Warriors a slight edge over the other Types, but ading Level as a sort of Skill mod should even things out a little.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Feb 11, 2008 13:13:49 GMT -5
Ye Godz, I can't believe I'm even suggesting this, but could the ability to cause terror be specific to certain monsters? For example, Dragons, Balrogs, Cyclopedia, etc? You could just note in the description, "Causes fear" or something like that.
I know in some of the cartoons and what-not, Dragons look kinda like big lizards, but mine have always been horrifying to behold... almost demonic in their presence. If you saw one, it would stick with you.
Anyway, continuing on, perhaps a simplified, if somewhat fiddley, system could be created where each time you view/deal with one of these monsters, the odds of becoming terrified decreases, until, after a certain amount of times, you've become totally desensitized.
For example, each time you encounter a dragon, roll 1d6 and roll less than (or equal to) the number of times you've encountered one. If you roll that number or less, you're able to fight without fear. If you roll over that, you're affected by it. That means that, after you've dealt with them six times, you are immune to the fear effect.
Each type of monster that can cause fear would have to be dealt with separately, although I suppose a GM could make allowances for similar creatures. On the other hand, all the dragons in creation aren't going to prepare you to deal with something on the scale of the Midgard Serpent!
This also means that Heroes that have been "around the block" in gameplay would do better than those just starting out, but the benefit would be specific to dealing with the creature in question.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Feb 11, 2008 13:31:56 GMT -5
That could work as well-I could just about see a group of battle-hardened Undead and Dragon killers turn to mush in the presence of thier first Shoggoth...but even so, not to the extent of a LVL 1 Adventurer with his first Saber and Breastplate, so I think Level would still be a factor.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Feb 11, 2008 13:35:20 GMT -5
That could work as well-I could just about see a group of battle-hardened Undead and Dragon killers turn to mush in the presence of thier first Shoggoth...but even so, not to the extent of a LVL 1 Adventurer with his first Saber and Breastplate, so I think Level would still be a factor. Okay, fair enough. Any suggestions? I'll ponder it on this end. How about (# of times you've dealt with the monster) + (level number) + (2d6 (DARO?)) must equal or exceed 10 or better? That doesn't really change the number of times you have to view the monster (about five or six), but figures Level into the mix, and uses the standard T&T dice system/mechanic.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Feb 11, 2008 13:53:23 GMT -5
I'd simply rate the Cause Fear effect at a pre-determined Level. It wouldn't necesssarily tie into how tough the Monsters are, as a completely Alien Thing could be more disturbing than something more dangerous. So:
Hunting Horror(MR 175, Cause Fear L2)
For example. My version would be a CN SR modified by Level as posted above. If the Adventurers survive or even defeat it, the NEXT Hunting Horror would be L1, then L0 then nothing...but an attack by a Shoggoth(say MR 225, Cause Fear L3) would still be a an L3 save on CN + Level! The adventurers survive and thrive(Lvl 2, Lvl 1, Lvl 0, nothing) but then run into a pack of Fulci Zombies (MR 60 apiece, Cause Fear L0, Disease-bearing) and probably just shrug it off until they find out the whole town is one big Dead Man's Party...by that time it's the Players having second thoughts...
I suspect that under this system the PCs would be keeping a list of Trophies/Bragging Rights at hand.
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Post by mahrundl on Feb 11, 2008 14:21:53 GMT -5
Some good ideas here. The main issue that I can see is that you have to keep track of individual monster encounter numbers. If you have even a moderate number of horror-causing monster types, that could get bad. My thought? Use CHR, since that is, amongst other things, a measure of 'force of personality'. Assign a Horror Level to each monster, and the characters must make a SR vs CHR to resist the effects of the horror. This means: - you're just making horror part of the standard SR system - there's no new formula to remember
- you can tailor how horrific the monster is by adjusting the Horror Level - and having met one Thing That Man Was Not Meant To Know doesn't mean that you'll be better equipped to handle the next one...
- character level factors in automatically - and they won't necessarily get 'braver' if they don't increase their CHR
You could also use the average of CHR and IQ rather than just CHR, to simulate the effect of prior experience, knowledge and sheer 'guts' in dealing with the fear. Another way to represent the Horror Level might be to use the monster's CHR rating as the target number.
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Post by mahrundl on Feb 11, 2008 14:24:12 GMT -5
OK Order99, who said that you were allowed to sneak that last post in? I'm sure that I was responding to Fenris' post! ;D
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Feb 11, 2008 14:34:23 GMT -5
Don't you just love convos of this type! This is exactly why I love coming here! I like all of these ideas, and I can't wait to see what else the members come up with. Why I like the idea of keeping track of the monster encounters (for terrifying monsters): It gives the world, and the character, a history. Remember how the comic book geeks like to say things like, "Sure Nightcrawler can teleport while carrying someone. He did it back in Uncanny X-Men #175, remember?" Well, now they can say the same thing during my games! "A Dragon? Bah! I've fought them at least a half-dozen times by now... shoot a little water down their throats, and they're nothing but overgrown iguanas!" Admittedly, if you're running a game with a lot of players and a lot of monsters, tracking this sort of stuff could be a little more complex than usual, but if we're talking a 4 person group (or so), it shouldn't be hard for Arnak the Barbarian (and company) to remember his/their biggest adventures. Also, I don't necessarily think that this fear thing needs to be overused. I really would use it only on very large, non-human, terrifying thingys... large demons, balrogs, dragons, etc. I doubt I'd even use it on Zombies and what-not, nor on things like Rocs, which normally just look like really big birds. These are the monsters from which legends are made. If the PC can't remember stories like these... maybe the GM isn't running them very well! EDIT: I can tell you every monster Buffy has ever fought, and all of the Big Bads, and in what season she encountered them. And that's not even in my own games! If you're not a Buffy fan, you don't know what you're missing... the character has seven seasons of backstory, and each episode and each season builds on the previous. The characters grow and become more knowledgeable and powerful with each successive adventure/story/season. I'd like to bring that into my games, as well. Every new thing builds on what has come before, and adds a sense of realism and history.
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