uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Jan 29, 2008 17:56:20 GMT -5
This is more a personal thing than anything and it's not a hard-and-fast rule (which is why I call it a "principle") but - Anything that would expand a character "sheet" for T&T beyond what can fit on ONE standard lined 3x5 index card? Don't need it. One of the reason "skill" systems give me the willies is they defy that principle - compare an old D&D character sheet with the monstrosities that 3.5 characters have become. (I have an idea for something along the lines of "talents" or "knacks" but that's another thread.) No offense to people who DO use skills, of course. Here's an analogy. Back in the early early days of computers, when programs were stored on paper tape, computers had about 4k of memory - that's 4k period, about 1/10 of 1% of what'd be considered a low-end graphics card today. When coding for those early machines, programmers didn't have a lot of memory to work in - so they'd have to be elegant, figuring out ways to do things given the constraints they had. They wrote entire operating systems, games, editors, etc. in that tiny space... meanwhile, these days, certain operating systems (mentioning no names, of course ) are bloated poorly-coded monstrosities 'cause memory is no longer a constraint. So T&T is a paper-tape DEC-10 with limited memory, so we have to be clever and creative to stay within the "limits" of the system, and 3.5 is your average Windows (oops! machine with scads and scads of memory, where stuff just gets thrown in 'cause there's more than enough room and actual debugging can wait until later. (Not a great analogy, but I think you see what I'm trying to say.)
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Post by gamepunk26 on Jan 29, 2008 22:51:15 GMT -5
I use small simplified character sheets for one-off games and convention characters. I use the 6e character sheets fromt he book for my campaign because long-term characters need space for equipment, notes, new spells, and other things.
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rlotze
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 79
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Post by rlotze on Jan 30, 2008 2:23:31 GMT -5
I copied FBIs character sheets concept (3x5 I think) and modified it to fit all I need for 7th edition on it. Four characters per sheet of paper. Seems necessary, the way I go through delvers.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Jan 30, 2008 2:40:42 GMT -5
I know what you mean Uburoi- I went from a 1.5G Athalon running Win98(which demanded 3.7 G space!) to the same machine running Red Hat 9(stripped to 1.1G) and then to a 1997 G3 350 processor running OS9 (a mere 95M-yes, Megabytes!). My next feat (time willing) will be to master DOS! It's not the hardware after all-it's the efficiency of the hardware-to-software ratio! I've seen a Commodore 64 do things with DOS(with GEOS GUI) that WinXP can't do, and if anyone ever made a Browser compatible with modern standards it- This is a T&T Forum, isn't it? Sorry. The analogy holds true though. As Uburoi said, more with less.This is why games like Prince Valiant, Twerps and T&T still blow my mind-the things they do with what they have. Efficiency. Elegance. Although I do use Skills in my game, on the back of the same Filecard...say, does that make the back of the cards a ROM pack? For those who haven't seen it yet, Gwindel has an amazingly compact yet detailed set of Character sheets for both T&T and MS&PE. The sheets aren't much bigger than two Filecards stacked vertically, and the JPEG format allows some really nice effects!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Jan 30, 2008 8:46:31 GMT -5
Efficiency and elegance, yes. But what I really like is the freedom.
In theory, rules tell you what you can do. In actual fact, they more frequently tell you what you cannot do. Wanna pick a lock in T&T? L3SR on DEX. Wanna pick a lock in other games? Do you have lockpicking skill? Okay, modify it by DEX. Now, assign Difficulty Level (check the chart) and modify... if the lock is old and rusted, for example, increase the difficulty. Do you have the proper tools? Modify chances further. How long do you have to work? In a hurry, subtract from your chances; taking your time, take a bonus.
Can I roll the freakin' dice now?
There's also the speed of the game (less rules moves faster) and freedom to create what you want... since you're not so bogged down with having to "buy" every stinkin' advantage or disadvantage, you're free to just ask, "Hey, do you mind if my character can do this?" or "can't do that?" Rarely will anybody have a problem with it, unless it just throws game balance all out of whack.
And even then, some won't mind. Besides, it adds creativity and maybe everyone else will start doing their own add-ins. It usually only takes one to get a ball (or die) rolling with these sorts of things.
Rules are fine for those who can't "just do it," but if you have your story and your world fleshed out, you know your limits without having to be told by a "third party." And the limits you choose will be perfectly tailored to the stories you and your group want to tell.
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horsa
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 61
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Post by horsa on Jan 30, 2008 9:17:16 GMT -5
Well spoke Fenris!
My response to "Can my character do this?" Has always been "Make a roll and find out."
What a game designer friend of mine calls the "Pub Rule". Make a dice roll to settle the question for now, and sort it out in the pub after the game.
Skills, talents, attributes, etc, eg all the rules should just be aids to help answer the question "Can my character do this?" Often the answer will be self evident.
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Jan 30, 2008 10:11:34 GMT -5
What's interesting, I realized this morning, is that T&T characters (as delvers should probably BE) are pretty much Renaissance beings - they're assumed, unless specified otherwise, to be able to handle pretty much any situation they get into, whether it's fighting an orc, climbing a rope, jumping across a treacherous gap while the ground underneath them quakes, or fixing fried eggs for the party's breakfast. Therefore the lack of "skills" as certain Other Games specify them, and also the lack of hard-and-fast "character types". And the BACK of the 3x5 card? That's where you write your detailed backstory, of course!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Jan 30, 2008 11:21:23 GMT -5
Therefore the lack of "skills" as certain Other Games specify them, and also the lack of hard-and-fast "character types". I do use the character type as a rough guide, however, if only to keep one player from hogging the spotlight. I mean, in T&T, Warriors can't cast magic. So, from that rule we know that certain types can or can't do things... we can, by extension, assume that the same rule can apply to other things, as well. As a semi-aside, I'd like to note that I am probably the only member of this board that makes Thief skills the province of the Warrior (instead of the Rogue). My reasons for this are 1) it emulates the fiction I'm attempting to mimic (from Barbarians in Times of Yore to the modern day Gumshoe, Fighters are frequently also Thieves), 2) it gives the Warrior something to do besides stick pointy things in monsters, and 3) it makes sense; Rogues can do this stuff by uttering a few words and making a few gestures... there's no reason to learn to do it the long way (and Warriors would, since they have no other choice... lacking Knock Knocks, Hidey Holes, and Fly Mes, they gotta learn the long versions). EDIT: Did somebody give me an Exalt? I looked over and saw 7, but I coulda swore it said 6 yesterday! Whoever did that, thank you!
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horsa
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 61
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Post by horsa on Jan 30, 2008 11:47:18 GMT -5
Fenris, you're not alone in making most thieves Warriors (or Citizens now under 7E). Rogues is short for Rogue Wizards after all.
To me the biggest requirement for being a "professional" thief is convincing the Thieves' Guild to let you in. They take a dim view of free-lancers.
Conan and Fafhrd are both thieves as often as they are warriors.
I love the 3x5 card principle. looking back I realize that most of the RPGs I enjoy most allow a fully playable character sheet to fit on one side of a 3x5 card. The back is for character history, special notes or a detailed portrait.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Jan 30, 2008 12:37:26 GMT -5
Fenris, you're not alone in making most thieves Warriors That's nice to know... I've never seen anyone else ever do that, and I do understand the rationale behind Rogues as Thieves; it's cool that others can see the same picture I am. And Thongor! We must never forget Thongor!
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khaydhaik
4th Level Troll
Thumb up!
Posts: 412
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Post by khaydhaik on Jan 30, 2008 22:44:20 GMT -5
I consider any character, regardless of character type, as a thief if the character steals stuff. In 7e, if any character wants to take any talent, fine, let them. Any character should be allowed to try any mundane action, imo.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Jan 31, 2008 4:30:48 GMT -5
This is true. As much as my Players and I like Skills for our PCs, Skills only describe the things they are BETTER AT, just like high STR PCs can lift more.
And yeah, any Type or Kindred can steal-if they want to be really good at it they can take a Skill or two(or just have high Attributes, either way).
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Jan 31, 2008 9:08:35 GMT -5
I consider any character, regardless of character type, as a thief if the character steals stuff. I think there's a difference between a thief, as a person who steals stuff, and a Thief, as a roleplaying game character type based off of Robin Hood, Grey Mouser, etc. The Thief character in gaming implies a set of skills that other characters don't have, and represent the character type that skulks about in the shadows, rather than the bold and brash, "square-jawed" Hero. I suspect that is exactly why they are so popular as a character type. (I have also noted a marked tendency towards the use of intellectual force over physical force; most of the players seem to want to out-think a situation rather than out-fight it). So, yeah, I do agree that if I go into Wal-Mart and steal a candy bar, that makes me a thief. That is not the same as these people who make their living off of burglary, muggings, stolen goods, drugs, and far worse fare. Those people would be Thieves (in a gaming definition; "career criminals" is probably the term we would use outside of gaming, although I prefer "Thugs" or the 80'sish "Hoodlums."). While it is expected that the PC hero Thief has it in his heart to do good, that blackness is in his heart, regardless. The PC Thief is ultimately a tragic character, I think. This is quite likely another part of his appeal. In the world of superhero comics, I think The Batman as he was originally envisioned would fit more as a Thief (with combat skills) than as a Warrior (with Thief skills). The difference is not only in the skill set and how you use it (although it may be primarily there), but is also in the mindset and heart of the character.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Jan 31, 2008 15:51:25 GMT -5
I have found another reason to adhere to Uburoi's 3x5 Principle: Character Sheets!
Maybe you're lucky enough to have your character sheets saved on your PC, and you have a printer right there at home. Well, lucky you!
The rest of us have to break the spines of our beloved roleplaying game books at the office or (more likely) the library! Or, if we're lucky enough to have the access, we can scrounge around on the internet until we find a sheet that works, then save it and print it in the office. This assumes you work in an office, and that you can use office supplies for personal use (I do, but I can't, but I do... it's our little secret!)
If you can keep it all on a 3x5 Card (or even a sheet or paper), man, what a lot of hassle just gone.
Okay, I admit it, having a sheet sometimes makes it seem more like a game (can you imagine playing Yahtzee on home-made 3x5 cards?), but if you can get over that little hump, man, what a hassle-saver!
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Post by lionrampant on Jan 31, 2008 16:24:03 GMT -5
Yeah, I totally hear you. For years when I played v5 I used 3x5 and 4x6 cards for character sheets, since that was the example that was in the rulebook. It worked great. I have also just written character info on paper, but you end up with so much white space that the smaller cards actually work better, since they look much tidier and nicer. As opposed to, say, Rolemaster, which I love but has like an 8-page character sheet. Gah!
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