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Post by gamepunk26 on Mar 9, 2008 12:38:24 GMT -5
My obsession and the d**nable market flooding by WoTC of their sub-par RPG has led me on a quest to find a modified and more enjoyable version of d20 D&D to play. We have a new addition to our game group and he want to run the aforementioned game. My own T&T game has stalled due to work consuming more time for the present. I would like to play in the newbs game, but he wants to run D&D3. Turns my mouth sour thinking about it. However, it would seem that there are many others like us out there and they have given the world Castles and Crusades. Gygax was a business partner of theirs and published many of his own adventures under their imprint. I will try and sway the newb away from the forces of evil with this wondrous tome. www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/index.htmlHere is a link to the FREE quickstart pdf www.trolllord.com/newsite/downloads/pdfs/cnc_qs.pdf
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Mar 9, 2008 13:01:44 GMT -5
Wish I'd known you were looking for something like that, GP. Yep, I think all of us are in general agreement that C&C wins the award for Best New Product That Feels Like An Old Product.
Frankly, I like the old stuff for other reasons besides playability. There's an "air" to the 80's games that I just enjoy the smell of. Gamma World, Psi World, Star Frontiers, Daredevils, Bushido, V&V, and everything else out there can be recreated for the modern gamer, complete with much the same "feel" and "style." But there's still something about the real thing that has a heart and soul that seems missing in the modern day. Everything is so... sterile.
And what about a good old clunky system? Why is everything so streamlined nowdays? Streamlined & Sterile, that's what S&S ought to stand for nowdays.
All that said, C&C is a great new game if you're looking for a great new game. You can pick up OD&D and AD&D all over the internet for about the same price as C&C, and then you can play the Original and Best. Instead of playing something that feels like AD&D, just play AD&D! (Note: As far as new games goes, I love C&C... I have a bunch of C&C stuff, and I love it. Great game, great product, imho).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2008 15:15:24 GMT -5
C&C is a fine game. We jokingly call it AD&D 2.5 because of it's ease of compatibility with AD&D. And the fact that Gygax was involved in the Castle Zagyg portion of C&C gives the game the Old School Seal of Approval, imho.
Regards,
V
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Post by gamepunk26 on Mar 9, 2008 15:54:42 GMT -5
I have AD&D and several D&D Rules Cyclopedia. OD&D is my fave (besides T&T) but this new GM wants to run D&D3. I was seeking an alternative to present him with. I have been collecting RPGs for year, but my connection to this board has introduced me to several new ones.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Mar 9, 2008 16:41:32 GMT -5
I have AD&D and several D&D Rules Cyclopedia. OD&D is my fave (besides T&T) As always, you rock Gamepunk. Coming from the guy who considers OD&D his fave (besides T&T) and has several copies of the Rules Cyclopedia (four, to be precise!). Isn't this the greatest place in the world?
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horsa
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 61
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Post by horsa on Mar 9, 2008 21:26:31 GMT -5
I still think of the three books of D&D as "Men&Magic", "Monsters&Treasure" and "The Underworld&Wilderness Adventures"
And 3rd edition had Erol Otis covers. red for Basic and blue for Expert, with a mage on teh cover of expert watching the party from basic.
I would call the Chainmail fantasy supplement and man-to-man rules edition 0.
No school like Old School. EPT anyone?
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Mar 9, 2008 22:33:18 GMT -5
I really started D&D with AD&D2e, then moved "up" to OD&D, which was 3e Revised at that time (the box sets with the Elmore covers). I say "moved up" because OD&D was actually more complex than AD&D2e at that time (don't believe me, read the RC). Anyhoo, that was my D&D for a long time, and still my idea of what D&D is. Some bad stuff happened, and I no longer have any of those box sets... but I later discovered the wonder that is The Rules Cyclopedia, and have been one with the polyhedra ever since. Our resident EPT guy, Uburoi, is AWOL... but before he left us, he gave us this: trollbridge.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=historical&action=display&thread=1199383481This is a link to uburoi's work to bring Tekumel into Trollworld. Whether or not you'll want to use it for campaigning is anyone's guess, but I'll bet you'll enjoy reading his notes.
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Post by Mist-tikk Foo-all on Mar 9, 2008 23:30:53 GMT -5
I've thought about buying the C&C booklet set, it is sort of nostalgic as the three booklet D&D is one of my favorite editions of it. I started with Holmes Blue Book basic (back in 1979), then I played the other basic and expert sets, Rules Cyclopedia, and AD&D 1st edition. I still have my White Box set, my Holmes book, Rules Cyclopedia, and all my AD&D books, as well as a ton of old D&D and AD&D modules, but I cannot find my 'Erol' basic and expert books!
Anyway, now with Gary passing and all, I think I just might order that C&C booklet edition, sort of in memory of him.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,040
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Post by order99 on Mar 11, 2008 0:16:44 GMT -5
Castles & Crusades isn't a bad little game-it makes a nice 'D&D/D20 Lite' for those who want it, and the artwork is pretty nice. The Prime/Non-Prime designation for Ability scores is a little bit like T&T 7th ed. Talents(though less focused), and the structure of the rules is loose enough to tinker with. The thing it really excels at though, is really FAST conversions to and from the AD&D/BD&D materials of old...
Having said that, I think that the bulk of EEG's efforts recently had been focused on the Lejendary Adventures RPG line(also released by Troll Lords)-a nice system in it's own right, almost T&T simple in it's mechanics(though PC creation takes a little bit longer and Magic is a touch more complex than the rest of the Check system).
Still a T&T fan mostly, but both of the above systems are pretty good.
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Post by Mist-tikk Foo-all on Mar 11, 2008 10:55:21 GMT -5
I downloaded the quickstart rules for C&C and LA a while back, but must confess I haven't read either of them yet. If you were to recommend one over the other, which would it be and why?
Based on your previous comments (order99), I would probably still stick to getting the C&C collector's edition (little booklets, I just LOVE little booklets), as it sounds as if I already have a plethora of play aids for it with my old D&D/AD&D stuff. I assume you mean the earliest versions of D&D/AD&D when you say it is easy to convert?
Speaking of Troll Lord games, has anyone tried 'Troll Knuckles' or 'Cleaver The Pit'? I got both for Xmas.
Troll Knuckles is a lot of fun, sort of like a card game played with unique dice, and I love the mini-back story they created for it.
I haven't yet tried Cleaver The Pit. I love gladiatorial combat games, and upon reading it sounds fast, fun, and deadly, just haven't sat down and played it yet. The rules need a good rewrite/edit (several bits of errata and references to rules and cards that do not exist, not good for a booklet of only 12 pages!), but there have been hints at Troll Lord of an expanded version of Cleaver sometime in the future.
Ok, now speaking of gladiatorial combat games, has anyone tried the 'Sacramentum Gladiatorium' supplement for T&T put out by Outlaw? I don't have it and am curious what others who do have it think.
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Post by mahrundl on Mar 11, 2008 13:59:47 GMT -5
I remember hearing of 'Sacramentum Gladitorium' when it first came out. It got favourable comments from the (very) few comments that I saw. I haven't tried it though.
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Post by lionrampant on Mar 11, 2008 16:21:10 GMT -5
I have Sacramentum Gladiatorum, but I have never used it. I read over it, and it just didn't feel like T&T at all, which makes sense because it isn't. It takes the T&T combat system and tries to turn it into a serious gladiator fighting game. I didn't care for it, actually, but I compare all games of that type to the old Avalon Hill game Gladiator, which is my gold standard in that area.
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Post by Mist-tikk Foo-all on Mar 12, 2008 1:14:35 GMT -5
I've never heard of Avalon Hill's Gladiator. Actually, a serious gladiator game based on T&T combat rules sounds kind of cool to me, different strokes I guess. Sacramentum Gladiatorum is on my RPG want list, which has become abyssmally long and is ever increasing! So, someday... I did a quick 'skim-read' of the C&C quickstart rules, and took a quick look at the other C&C downloads I had. While it does have similarities to early D&D/AD&D, it also has many significant differences. Now, I know I'm going to really age myself here, but I never played beyond AD&D1E, I think I bought just a few 2nd edition books and decided it was different enough that I didn't want it. Besides, I already had a stack of AD&D1E hardcovers that could give ya a hernia! What the hell did I need a 'new edition' for? I was also into Boot Hill, Gamma World, Indiana Jones RPG, Conan RPG, Top Secret, and Star Frontiers, among others. Then I started experimenting with non-TSR games, like the old Car Wars game and T&T. So needless to say, I never played 2E, D20 (to be perfectly honest, I don't even know what D20 is, although I've seen it referenced quite a bit), 3E or 3.5 or whatever. Anyway, my point to all this is: which edition of D&D/AD&D is C&C based on? I see the OGL in the C&CQS rules, but again I am only very peripherally aware of the OGL so I don't know what edition that is based on either (no, I didn't read the OGL).
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,040
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Post by order99 on Mar 12, 2008 1:32:41 GMT -5
C&C is based on the D20 rules as presented by D&D 3E...Troll Lords eliminated Feats, Skills, several Classes, invented or reverse-engineered a few Classes of thier own, added the concept of Prime vs. Non-prime scores and tweaked a few Spells. The idea was to get a D20-based game with an "old-school" feel...whether they succeeded depends on who you ask of course, but IMHO I think they did a pretty bang-up job.
The OGL is a document releasing the D20 Rules for reference and usage-it contains the Rules for D20 system, Spells and Monsters and the Terms of Use therof.
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Post by Mist-tikk Foo-all on Mar 12, 2008 8:31:09 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance, but is D20 an edition of D&D, or is it a generic set of RPG rules? I have seen 'non-D&D' products advertised as D20 or D20 compatible. Is D20 a TSR creation or was it originally put out by WotC?
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