Outlaw Mess

[jongjungbu]

I concur. That's what inspired me to write my own solos I put up! And sorry above that I didn't post up Ken's letter, but ragnorakk beat me to the punch so it's all good.

[Hogscape]

The latest exchange on Trollhalla is a real eye-opener. The large amount of cash being paid by OP for submissions and editing... For those of us that put in hundreds of hours of work for 'love' might be feeling a little vexed.

[mgtremaine]

Understandably, but going forward at least you know there is a market and you should be able to get paid for some of you excellent work.

-Mike

[ProfGremlin]

Dec 3, 2009 20:41:19 GMT -5 Hogscape said:

The latest exchange on Trollhalla is a real eye-opener.

Must not be part of the 'walla... or if it is I missed it..

[Hogscape]

Hey, I don't mind not getting paid. Didn't do the work for cash can't help feeling like a 'second class' contributor though.

[jongjungbu]

Dec 3, 2009 21:51:36 GMT -5 ProfGremlin said:

Dec 3, 2009 20:41:19 GMT -5 Hogscape said:

The latest exchange on Trollhalla is a real eye-opener.

Must not be part of the 'walla... or if it is I missed it..

It was mass emailed to Trollhalla, back and forth.

[jongjungbu]

The back:

Jim "that guy" has sent me an email in which he responds to some of the charges against him. In the spirit of fairness, I am reposting it here, without comment other than this lead-in. Nothing would please me more than to see James resolve the misunderstandings and hurt feelings in this matter, and get back to business as usual. I do feel that there has been an overall lack of communication. I think there are plenty of instances where James has acted blamelessly. I'd like to emphasize that the usual model for doing things in the business world is to have a contract prepared that spells out who does what, and what remuneration is offered for the work.

I emphasize that it takes two to make a business deal, and both should be in agreement before anything is done.

Those who feel that James has treated them unfairly simply should not work with him in the future.

James, you are internet savvy. You knew about the rpg.net art flap as soon as we did. Why didn't you login there and defend yourself? Why didn't you defend yourself here? An angry comeback about a place where you may be in the right doesn not exonerate all charges. I have not cancelled your access to Trollhalla. Using other people's work and then refusing to talk about it is not ethical business practice. You have been accused of certain things, James, and your silence only makes it seem worse. Defend yourself.

Here is James's letter:
_______________________________________________

Hello Ken,

Now we should talk about your mass Trollhalla e-mails.

You and many others somehow now assume (wrongly) you can just e-mail a publisher who has First Publishing Rights to material and demand they should immediately destroy all books and return copyright control to the author, even though you were paid either in printed copies, cash or both. I'm sorry, but publishing doesn't work like that. I can't imagine any book publisher doing that for any published author who suddenly disliked the publisher and wanted all his/her books pulled from the shelves. I retain FULL control of all items I have published for you. Unless you want to BUY back the rights for each item, I control them, and no one else will be allowed to publish them. I only have to send them a printed copy to prove my point legally.

As for Mari, Simon and Andy, same goes for them. They were always paid for work any work they did for "that company", so posting they did work for free is an outright lie and YOU KNOW IT. In fact Mari and I really parted ways back when HH#16 was released, because she charged me $550 for editing 100 pages. A bit high don't you think? That's over $5 per page. Simon was paid an average $250 for his covers. Same with Andy, he was paid $150 initially then usually 20+ free copies to resell. If his item appeared in HH he was also paid again in FREE copies (worth around $100 value). So now, all of you who have been paid in some shape or form want me to just forget any money I paid and return items FREE to your control. Sorry, but it won't happen.

Oddly, I don't see even one of you offering to PayPal me the money back in return for control of your items. A good example would be TERRoR. I paid $200 to Simon for the covers. I paid $450 to Mari for the art and editing. You were paid with 23 FREE copies ($18 x 23 = a value of $414, plus allowed to purchase copies at my printing cost, with no profit to me). My total cost for TERRoR is $1,064. How long before you three will be PayPal'ing me my $1,064? I'm sure the answer is NEVER.

I could mass Trollhalla e-mail everyone like you did, but I'll take the higher road and not.

"that company",
James ~

The Forth:

Hola,

Misunderstandings need to be worked out: often point by point. I am now going to go through James' last letter point by point and put in my side of the argument--if it is an argument.
________________________________________________

Hello Ken,

Hello, James,

Now we should talk about your mass Trollhalla e-mails.

Yes, we should. Getting things out in the open is the only way to clear things up.

You and many others somehow now assume (wrongly) you can just e-mail a publisher who has First Publishing Rights to material and demand they should immediately destroy all books and return copyright control to the author, even though you were paid either in printed copies, cash or both.

First publication rights is exactly what you have. Copyright belongs to the author. Republication rights belong to the author. Even then, people have the right to ask other people to respect their feelings and not do things. The second parties can always refuse.


I'm sorry, but publishing doesn't work like that. I can't imagine any book publisher doing that for any published author who suddenly disliked the publisher and wanted all his/her books pulled from the shelves. I retain FULL control of all items I have published for you.

Yes, that's correct. Have I asked you to quit publishing my items? No. The specific form in which you have published them is yours to do with as you see fit. The actual words and intellectual content is mine.

Now, in a case like Gristlegrim, where you used unauthorized artwork on the covers, and where the interior editing was so shoddy that it made me scream, I feel quite justified in asking you not to publish. In that case I have seen test copies and incomplete versions. I don't have a written contract. I would like you to not publish, and not offer it as a product to Fiery Dragon until things are resolved.

Unless you want to BUY back the rights for each item, I control them, and no one else will be allowed to publish them. I only have to send them a printed copy to prove my point legally.

You have first rights, James. You don't have reprint rights or any other rights to the material. To have that would require a written contract, and you haven't been offereing anyone written contracts that I'm aware of. If buying back the first rights is an option, your should specify that--again in a written contract agreed upon by both parties.

As for Mari, Simon and Andy, same goes for them. They were always paid for work any work they did for "that company", so posting they did work for free is an outright lie and YOU KNOW IT. In fact Mari and I really parted ways back when HH#16 was released, because she charged me $550 for editing 100 pages. A bit high don't you think? That's over $5 per page. Simon was paid an average $250 for his covers.

Your dealings with Mari and Andy are between you and them. I don't believe they are complaining about the material you paid them for. Again, the usual practice is to agree on compensation ahead of time. I believe the gripe is about re-using material in other contexts without permission.


Same with Andy, he was paid $150 initially then usually 20+ free copies to resell. If his item appeared in HH he was also paid again in FREE copies (worth around $100 value). So now, all of you who have been paid in some shape or form want me to just forget any money I paid and return items FREE to your control. Sorry, but it won't happen.

That's fine. Continue to use any material that you have legally obtained. No one is objecting to that.

Oddly, I don't see even one of you offering to PayPal me the money back in return for control of your items. A good example would be TERRoR. I paid $200 to Simon for the covers. I paid $450 to Mari for the art and editing. You were paid with 23 FREE copies ($18 x 23 = a value of $414, plus allowed to purchase copies at my printing cost, with no profit to me). My total cost for TERRoR is $1,064. How long before you three will be PayPal'ing me my $1,064? I'm sure the answer is NEVER.

Did I really get 23 free copies? I don't remember that many, but can't say for sure. Nor have I asked for the material back, or threatened to do anything else with it. While stating that I could not compel you to quit publishing and selling my work, I have asked you to discontinue using my stuff with any illegal artwork.


I could mass Trollhalla e-mail everyone like you did, but I'll take the higher road and not.

Yes, this is exactly what you should do. Defend yourself or be ostracized--those are your choices now.

Best wishes,
Ken


"that company",
James ~

The last one was copy and pasted as-is. So, it's not my fault that there was no formatting for easy read by Ken.

[ProfGremlin]

Dec 3, 2009 22:16:08 GMT -5 jongjungbu said:

The last one was copy and pasted as-is. So, it's not my fault that there was no formatting for easy read by Ken.

Thank you, JJB. I really appreciate being kept in the loop.

[Hogscape]

It just occured to me that Jim sent a private email to Ken and Ken replied publically. Dat's quite funny really...

[Vin Ahrr Vin]

It is a bit strange, but there are quite a few people waiting anxiously for any word from Jim. While part of me hates to see a private e-mail sent out publically, folks deserve to hear what "that company"' responses are to this whole thing. If Jim had been more open, such things wouldn't need to be aired out.

[machfront]

I believe the mess as it stands now speaks for itself loudly enough, so I'll refrain. Which is....more than he deserves quite frankly...

I'm giving Boozer a great big, sloppy Exalt! just on principle and because I concur with what has been stated by the other Trolls. ;D

[Boozer]

Cheers Mach!

Yeah I saw those emails. The thing is, I don't think anyone has ever complained about the amounts paid, free copies sent out, etc. I don't think that's the point of all this is it?

I have openly stated on here and RPG.net that Jim has been fair & square with regard to payments etc. (Plus I don't think anyone else really cares about that, right?)

I mean, isn't the crux of the matter the fact that art was used without permission (allegedly) on T&T products?

<<sigh>>

I'm fed up with the whole thing

[machfront]

Dec 4, 2009 2:40:03 GMT -5 Boozer said:

I mean, isn't the crux of the matter the fact that art was used without permission (allegedly) on T&T products?

Yes.
As well as printing Mazes & Minotaurs though it's expressly and clearly forbidden, taking folks stuff off their websites and other places and publishing without permission, the obvious intentional theft of the Dungeon Magazine adventure by Vince Garcia...

He seems to now be entrenching himself and being excessively possessive about certain products and whatnot. Irony.

[koraq]

Frankly, since James have been caught lying before and some of those named claim those numbers are bogus I feel tempted to disbelieve. I roll a INT SR.

[mgtremaine]

You know if you add the phrase "my precious " to the end of a few sentences of James email, suddenly things become more clear.

-Mike