My thoughts on T&T

[unclecranky]

i vote for using T&T- Temporarily, until we can convince FBI that the demand is there.
Since cyber-punk isn't my specialty, I have nothing to contribute to the riggers idea, but here are some ideas for techno-fluff:
Robo-pets that last for years, taking in 'sustenance' in the form of scrap metal or scrap-plastic to 'grow' and 'change'. The bad thing would happen if they were neglected, causing them to 'turn mean' and form into non 'species' specific feral packs that foraged for food.
Vending Machines that actively follow you around, hawking specific wares, and occasionally grabbing at whatever chunk of you they can reasonably reach (Oh, yes, I WAS thinking of that). The only way to get rid of them would be to commit an act of vandalism or climb a lamp-post.
Artificially created personal weather, with all that implies.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Oct 12, 2008 15:10:00 GMT -5 unclecranky said:

i vote for using T&T- Temporarily, until we can convince FBI that the demand is there.
Since cyber-punk isn't my specialty, I have nothing to contribute to the riggers idea, but here are some ideas for techno-fluff:
Robo-pets that last for years, taking in 'sustenance' in the form of scrap metal or scrap-plastic to 'grow' and 'change'. The bad thing would happen if they were neglected, causing them to 'turn mean' and form into non 'species' specific feral packs that foraged for food.
Vending Machines that actively follow you around, hawking specific wares, and occasionally grabbing at whatever chunk of you they can reasonably reach (Oh, yes, I WAS thinking of that). The only way to get rid of them would be to commit an act of vandalism or climb a lamp-post.
Artificially created personal weather, with all that implies.

I have to exalt you for the vending machines, I can just see in the middle of an adventure the characters trying to be stealthy or tail someone and "Mr.Vendi" starts following them around like a carnival barker. Comedy gold! ;D

The Robo-pets are kind of high-tech for a Cyber-Punk game, but the idea of feral techno-organic beasts lurking in the shadowed back allies is too good to pass up. Especially if they have since been outlawed and the ones that remain have learned to reproduce themselves.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I just thought of a way that you could drop Cyber-Punk into the T&T rules almost seamlessly.

What defines characters in a Fantasy role-playing game mechanics wise? Combat ability and Magic ability! Troll-God spotted that years ago. Everything else is detail and fluff. Thats what lead to the wonderful simplicity of T&T.

So what we do to drop in a Cyber-Punk setting is to define the characters in the same way for that genre! The thing that defines characters in a Cyber-punk setting are Combat ability and Net-running/Hacking.

So Street Samurai/Gang Members/Mercenaries/Cyborg-Ninja are all basically Warriors with fluff and detail added on.

Net-Runners and Riggers are basically Techno-Wizards. I was washing dishes and Clarks law popped into my head " Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". That and Unclecranky had me thinking of the Robo-Pimp from "Ice Pirates".

So now tell me how this sounds for the Net-Runners. Just like T&T use IQ as the active stat for Net-running and instead of a bunch of separate skills use level determined "Spells" for separate skills and programs.

For example.

Name: Basic Attack Virus
Level: 1
Description: An attack program designed to weaken the defenses of an I.C. program.
Does I.Q. rank in damage to computer systems and programs.
Cost/Techno: 4

Techno ( I hope I can come up with a better name, maybe Tek? ) would replace Wizardry as the battery stat for "Casting" programs.

Computer defenses would be treated like an M.R. creature with tougher ones having special abilities Armor rating and Con.

Cyber-Decks would be a cross between weapons and magic staffs. They would add to your I.Q. for "Program" use and lower the cost on your Techno stat for using a better Deck.

I would probably put a damage restriction on Hackers, as in the books they don't tend to use the insanely powerful weapons the Street Samurai use. Maybe no heavy or support weapons just pistols, shotguns and SMG's.

It has a long way to go, but with this system you could pull off cool stuff like in Masamune's "Ghost in the Shell" where the very best ( High level ;D ) Hackers can even hack peoples brains and alter their perceptions.

Of course you could have Rogues in this system as well. I think Riggers would either fall under this category or just be Warriors with lots of toys! ;D

Also Robots could be treated as M.R. and Weapons and Cybernetics should be a snap.

I would want to probably bring in the missile weapons rules from MS&PE's, or not. There does seem to be a fair amount of melee combat in Cyber-Punk and I would not want to lose that either.

We would probably want to change the armor bonus to something else for the Warrior. A combat bonus would seem the most reasonable.

Vehicles, I need to get a look at my copy of MS&PE's before I make any real decision on them and if you think about it Cybernetics have been in T&T since "Buffalo Castle" gave us the Elephants Foot! We just need to stat them up and come up with a reasonable price system and enhancement limit to keep the players from going wild.

Give me some input so I know if I'm heading in the right direction!

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Sorry for the multi-post.

I just thought of something to add to the Hacking. In the Gibson novels you can die in the Net and it can kill you in real life. Maybe if Techno is used up attacks that exceed it are taken off your Con.

That way you could simulate the books and movies where someone gets fried online and it flat-lines them or brain fries them in real life?

You could have White and Black I.C.

White Depletes your Techno and knocks you out and off-line. Black depletes your Techno and eats your Con, Brain frying you or stopping your heart.

Just a Thought.

[unclecranky]

Glad I could help. Net death mirroring/causing IRL death sure sounds plausible to me, though I'm not up enough on techno, as I've written before, to be anything other than fascinated. The black/white thing sounds good, assuming the 'white' stands for 'good/on your side/not really wanting to hurt you' and the black stands for 'evil/the enemy/d**n your hacking soul to all nine circles of hell at once, you rat b*st*rd'.
BTW another couple ideas:
techno-tattoos that identify a character as using a particular brand exclusively, and entitling them to automatic discounts on purchases of items belonging to that brand (ford cars, coca-cola beverages, dell computers)
Street gangs based on the abovementioned affiliations (f'rinstance the 19th street Sprite-heads).
Hitmen who, instead of offering to kill you or your family, offer contracts to completely wipe out your online presence (oh, wait a minute, I don't think that's fiction anymore).
Wandering vandals (here are your rogues) with water-guns who squirt at d**n near everything in the mistaken (maybe not) belief that it's all computerized.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Oct 12, 2008 22:21:23 GMT -5 unclecranky said:

Glad I could help. Net death mirroring/causing IRL death sure sounds plausible to me, though I'm not up enough on techno, as I've written before, to be anything other than fascinated. The black/white thing sounds good, assuming the 'white' stands for 'good/on your side/not really wanting to hurt you' and the black stands for 'evil/the enemy/d**n your hacking soul to all nine circles of hell at once, you rat b*st*rd'.
BTW another couple ideas:
techno-tattoos that identify a character as using a particular brand exclusively, and entitling them to automatic discounts on purchases of items belonging to that brand (ford cars, coca-cola beverages, dell computers)
Street gangs based on the abovementioned affiliations (f'rinstance the 19th street Sprite-heads).
Hitmen who, instead of offering to kill you or your family, offer contracts to completely wipe out your online presence (oh, wait a minute, I don't think that's fiction anymore).
Wandering vandals (here are your rogues) with water-guns who squirt at d**n near everything in the mistaken (maybe not) belief that it's all computerized.

Hmm, brings a whole new meaning to the term Cola-wars. ;D

White and Black I.C. are a Cyber-Punk genre fixture. White I.C. ( Intrusion Countermeasures ) are the legal form of computer system defense. They can boot intruders out of a protected system or the more aggressive kind can knock a hacker out.

Black I.C. is illegal software that can kill a hacker and/or destroy the intruding computer. Both kinds can track an inexperienced hacker back to his computer, raid his data copy his ID and alert the authorities to his identity and location.

I'm not quite sure when the term White and Black I.C. came into use, but I believe that it originate in the Terms "White Hat" and "Black Hat". "White Hat's" are non-destructive hackers that break into systems for the challenge and to see what is not meant to be seen. "Black Hat's" on the other hand steal information, write viruses, destroy systems just because they can and other crimes of the like.

I also think if we get this written up we should name the game mascot "Mr. Vendi" the insane vending-bot!

[machfront]

I'm not in a very good "brain-space" right now, so I'll have to cover some more a lil later. But for now...
You have most everything covered, really. As far as robots...if they're added, I would think they'd be more of the level of tech as was in the film Runaway. Sort of advanced, though very utilitarian.
The only Cyberpunk fluff I think you've missed so far are the drugs, especially designer drugs. Huge Mega-Corporations are a cyberpunk mainstay, as are gangs.
Weapons. No beam weapons in my opinion. Guns could be treated exactly the same way as in MS&PE. Only the non-rule details need change, like for instance caseless ammo and the fact that you could interface with a weapon if you had the link to do so.

Now, I would vote for making this a supplement to MS&PE, but it would indeed also make sense to have a full game from the T&T core. Sort of like Gamma-Trollworld and Powertrip. I dunno, really. They both sound good. However, the point made about MS&PE becoming harder to find is a good one.

EDIT: Woo hoo! 200 posts for me!

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I agree Runaway is just about perfect for the level I want robots at. Cool and useful with room for personality and quirkiness, but still clearly robots.

Ah! How could I forget the drugs, especially all the designer combat drugs. Drugs are almost as intrinsic to Cyber-Punk as hacking and cybernetics. Some games like Shadow-Run have tried to get away from that by creating alternatives like addictive full-sensory programs ( Kind of like the film "Strange Days" ) , but for the genre it just does not ring true.

I give you an exalt sir, Cyber-Punk without drugs is not Cyber-Punk at all.

So far we have 1 vote for T&T from Unclecranky and 1 Vote for MS&PE's from Macfront. I'm leaning toward T&T for two reasons, #1 Because it's in print and #2 Because I'm liking the Net-running/Magic solution and want to see where it takes me.

[machfront]

Probably time to move this to a seperate thread. Sorta-kinda threadjacked the heck outta this one. -lol-

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Oct 13, 2008 17:42:47 GMT -5 machfront said:

Probably time to move this to a seperate thread. Sorta-kinda threadjacked the heck outta this one. -lol-

I was thinking much the same thing, but what board would be the most appropriate?

[unclecranky]

Talk to Mahrundl. He'll talk you through starting a new thread.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I was kind of thinking would it be best to move it to "World Building" Or "Historical and Other T&T" ?

[mahrundl]

'Historical and Other T & T' would be most appropriate, I would think. Yell if you need any help with anything.

Also, from recollection, 'Black I.C.E.' (and I forget what the 'E' stands for, unless it's 'Electronic') came from William Gibson's Neuromancer, and the concept was derived from the dangerous 'black ice' found on frozen roads. I think that 'White I.C.E.' was just called 'I.C.E.', but I haven't read the book in quite some time...

(Edited because the original explanation wasn't very clear.)

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I'll move it there post haste! ;D

[wilowisp]

Oct 5, 2008 19:07:28 GMT -5 Mhegrrrim Skulltosser said:

I played with the MSPE skill system for awhile in T&T. I too thought it would be great. What discouraged me from using MSPE skills was the level /AP aspect of a skill. After the simplicity of T&T I did not want to track each skill separately.

Cast "Raise Thread!" ;D

I've been using the skill system in 5.5, which sounds alot like the one in MSPE in that it too tracks skill development by skill. I hated that aspect of it though, so I just made another leveling up option where you could place all your leveling points into skills you possessed if you wished.