Outlaw Mess

[mahrundl]

Hoo boy...

Firstly, Quog, I'm sorry that you got caught up in this. I had no doubt at all that someone had grabbed the wrong end of the stick, as soon as I saw your name mentioned. I can't for even a moment see you doing what you were accused of.

I don't frequent RPG.net. Do they always react like that? (I haven't read the whole thread yet, mind.)

I just caught up on the postings at Trollhalla. Mach and Hogscape, I doubt that you're 'blackballed'; ultimately, that's Ken's decision and his alone. Kopfy, while understandably annoyed at "that company", might do better to not take it out on other people quite so much...

I'm short of time to post at present, so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully this will resolve itself with minimal damage all round.

[ragnorakk]

Man this just gets uglier and more muddled and such any time I look... and I am muchly trying not to, but WTF!
Feel like I drive past the same car accident every so often because it never gets cleared off the road......

I always get weirded out commenting on others business practices, because it's *literally* not my business,
nor am I much of a customer of anybody involved.

[machfront]

Prof, well, true to my collector nature, luckily I already have three copies of M6E (older paperback, updated paperback and hardback), but I've been meaning to get the more recent hardback with the recent changes due to the errata. Again, because I'm sick like that.
Good idea on the homebrewed book protector. How old-school of you. Yuk yuk!
*dodges tomatoes*

mahrundl,
Concerning RPG.net, it's hard to say to be honest. What I mean is, it's membership is huge. I mean, they have usually have more people online at once than we have members here at the 'Bridge. Add to that that there's always seemed to me to be more folks that are on the younger side of the hobby than we have here, for example. We young whipper-snappers are hot-headed folk.
But really, I think the sheer amount of people and posts has more to do with it. With all those voices and wide spread of views on so much, is it any wonder that some amount of hyperbole is thrown about every now and then?
However, I've seen far worse threads than that. You should have seen some of the threads on Palladium and Kevin Siembieda. Whew.

[machfront]

Nov 18, 2009 14:52:37 GMT -5 ragnorakk said:

I always get weirded out commenting on others business practices, because it's *literally* not my business

Though it probably doesn't look like it, I actually agree with this. I guess, to me, it's something that does, or at least can, impact the T&T community, due to OPs close ties with it. At the very least, it can be prove to be an ink splotch on an otherwise quite nicely done landscape and paint an unsavory picture to outsiders (who may have or will come into the T&T fold).

[machfront]

Rick weighs in.

A poster on the thread posted that Rick Loomis asked that he post the following for him.

Flying Buffalo does not approve of using art without permission, nor did we ever ask or permit "that company" to do so. (Some of our best friends are artists!) If any artist has found that "that guy" has illegally used his or her art, we recommend that they prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.
- Rick Loomis, President, Flying Buffalo Inc

Well. Well, he does cut right to the chase the ol' war-dog, doesn't he?

[machfront]

*sigh*
And now, M6E has been pulled from Lulu. Crap. Now, how are they supposed to fulfill my order? Dealing with Lulu customer service is not something I look forward to.
Oh, well. It's my own fault as I suspect it may happen. Like Crow says in the Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Movie, "Weelll...I weighed the options of it being a good idea or not....and I went ahead with it anyway."

[hrrrothgarrr]

M6E has been pulled from RPGnow. Yesterday there were 28 items if you did a search for ""that company"", now there are 23.

I hope "that guy" can get things back on track with legit cover art.

[machfront]

I hope so, too, but the understandable ill-will this has earned in our hobby, already a small, niche hobby has already done some major damage I'd imagine.
Not that I blame them.
For my own part, to say I'm upset with "that guy" right now is a sweet and soft understatement.

Besides that, it just jumped up by times ten with more recent likely stolen pieces as covered in more recent posts in the thread.

(also, I'm glad I bought the pdf for M6E this morning, too)

[ragnorakk]

Nov 18, 2009 15:05:29 GMT -5 machfront said:

Nov 18, 2009 14:52:37 GMT -5 ragnorakk said:

I always get weirded out commenting on others business practices, because it's *literally* not my business

Though it probably doesn't look like it, I actually agree with this. I guess, to me, it's something that does, or at least can, impact the T&T community, due to OPs close ties with it. At the very least, it can be prove to be an ink splotch on an otherwise quite nicely done landscape and paint an unsavory picture to outsiders (who may have or will come into the T&T fold).

Well, fwiw, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Mach. The M&M thing really made me think twice about Outlaw. The fact that there's silence and venom at Trollhalla and little more is disturbing. (not to mention... well, yeah, to mention the ad hominems thrown at Mach there... ugh) (BTW, mach, all you gotta do is email Ken at the address on the front page and ask to join...) Peoples work being used for profit this way with incorrect attribution/ no attribution/ no knowledge even(?) is bad bad practice.

[hrrrothgarrr]

Even though "that company" has a LOT of product that I would very much like to buy, having read the latest on the art thread on RPGnet, I am afraid I won't be sending my money there for a little while.

This looks like more than one or two honest mistakes. I know too many artists and writers who make their living from their IP to support or condone this sort of thing.

[machfront]

Oh, I forgot to mention I emailed Ken this morning and firstly apologized if I'd inadvertently helped stir the puddin' too much, but if it was ok with him I'd like to join. He wrote me right back and was very kind and told me what info I needed to give him and he'd sign me up and message me back when he could.


I'm gonna go ahead and call this one right now.
Rick and Ken rescind any official or unofficial right and/or ability for "that company" to publish T&T material after all this is over. Pity, sorta. I wonder what will become of HH and DD.
Man... it looks like almost all the covers of Hobbit Hole are cases of theft. *shakes head*

[mgtremaine]

Hopefully it won't come down to that, "that guy" obviously is interested in publishing T&T whatever is takes. I'm going to guess that he'll figure out a way to continue without getting himself in trouble. But more interesting was the fact that the PDF releases has draw more attention and reached a far wider market then before. My hope is that this will give Rick the motivation needed to push more product out via PDF.

-Mike

[quoghmyre]

From the artist within, I feel really sad for T&T, in the past we have seen T&T give many artists opportunities to get published. Every time a piece of art was stolen it also robbed an opportunity from our artists.

[ProfGremlin]

Nov 18, 2009 16:00:11 GMT -5 machfront said:

I'm gonna go ahead and call this one right now.

I'm hoping not. While I don't use Paypal which makes it hard to purchase directly from OP I can still support them via Lulu. Perhaps more stringent documentation will be required in the future for submissions including artwork. An affadavit from the submitter as to the source of such art. It wouldn't be much different from a photographer providing a model release, really.

[machfront]

Nov 18, 2009 16:32:11 GMT -5 mgtremaine said:

But more interesting was the fact that the PDF releases has draw more attention and reached a far wider market then before. My hope is that this will give Rick the motivation needed to push more product out via PDF.

Very good point. Heck for the first 10 or 15 pages, the only mention was of the pdfs. In fact, I was beginning to wonder if they realized OP was on Lulu or had a site.

Nov 18, 2009 16:36:24 GMT -5 quoghmyre said:

From the artist within, I feel really sad for T&T, in the past we have seen T&T give many artists opportunities to get published. Every time a piece of art was stolen it also robbed an opportunity from our artists.

Couldn't agree more.
Heck, I'd bet some of them may have even allowed use for free had he asked.
But, more importantly, if he wanted some free or low-cost art, had he put out the call, artists in the rpg community would have responded. Witness all the excellent art in Swords & Wizardry and the magazines Knockspell and Fight On!.

Nov 18, 2009 17:01:07 GMT -5 ProfGremlin said:

Nov 18, 2009 16:00:11 GMT -5 machfront said:

I'm gonna go ahead and call this one right now.

I'm hoping not. While I don't use Paypal which makes it hard to purchase directly from OP I can still support them via Lulu. Perhaps more stringent documentation will be required in the future for submissions including artwork. An affadavit from the submitter as to the source of such art. It wouldn't be much different from a photographer providing a model release, really.

I don't see how he can be trusted with Ken and Rick's intellectual property. He obviously doesn't respect the rights of others' creative material and I think he's made that abundantly clear.

Now, as far as a modicum of fan-created and wholly 'love-of-the-game' unofficial stuff... maybe, but then again, since he's demonstrated such a wanton attitude, if Ken and Rick don't put the kibosh on this, then it'll be a huge mistake, in my opinion.