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Post by ProfGremlin on Nov 18, 2009 18:26:27 GMT -5
I don't see how he can be trusted with Ken and Rick's intellectual property. He obviously doesn't respect the rights of others' creative material and I think he's made that abundantly clear. I'll have to bow to your better understanding of how "that guy" and "that company" works. I'm not familiar with his business, really, beyond the fact that he offers T&T items for sale and supports fan-based submissions. I haven't read the thread beyond the first page on RPGNow nor have I looked in Trollhalla, I quite simply haven't had the time, so I don't know what else may have been brought to light. My thought was aimed at more of the fan-based submissions in that it would be incumbent upon the submitter to supply the documentation and/or credits for any included material they themselves didn't originate be it print or art. |
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Nov 18, 2009 18:36:22 GMT -5
Prof,
Nah, I don't think I have a "better understanding". I was only stating how I view it 's'all.
But the thrust of my point is: If he's willing to so brazenly steal so very much from so many...why should he have any use of fan-created material with or without the T&T stamp? Such fan-created material, as I'm sure you know, is crafted with loving hands for no more than the joy of doing. Since, in my opinion, he doesn't look to appreciate that, then... again, why let him have such material.
If this isn't resolved to 100% satisfaction of all wronged parties... and perhaps even if it is, I'd propose to take up the extended offer from the folks who're in charge of the excellent Fight On! magazine and send all your T&T stuff to them.
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Post by mgtremaine on Nov 18, 2009 18:50:31 GMT -5
The rpg.net thread is long and bloody but basically it pulled lots of eye balls into the search and many covers were identified as "un-licensed" (to be more kind then they put it). The scary part is many of these pieces of art were commissioned by bigger gaming companies and publishing houses who have been notified. No idea where it goes from here but I'd say "that guy" will be getting emails, phone calls, and certified letters.
Many of the PDF's have been pulled, the outlaw-press page is down to 13 at this point. Not much to say other then it's too bad it blew up this way, especially considering how generous many artists can be.
Fight On! hmmm that might good.
-Mike
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Nov 18, 2009 18:58:01 GMT -5
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Nov 18, 2009 20:50:49 GMT -5
Hopefully it won't come down to that, "that guy" obviously is interested in publishing T&T whatever is takes. I'm going to guess that he'll figure out a way to continue without getting himself in trouble. But more interesting was the fact that the PDF releases has draw more attention and reached a far wider market then before. My hope is that this will give Rick the motivation needed to push more product out via PDF. -Mike Mike, can you perhaps put this to Rick? If there was any doubt about the power of PDF - it must surely be quashed now... |
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Nov 18, 2009 21:09:06 GMT -5
I read earlier in this (or another thread) that "that company" was 'Ken's publisher of choice'.
What's more likely is that OP is the publisher that will publish Ken. I'm sure if Wizard's of the Coast wanted to publish T&T, Ken would have a new 'publisher of choice'.
What readers should remember is that Ken and Rick knew about the artwork - they both get copies of everything that OP produce. Suggesting that Ken now tells OP to cease publication would be a little hypocritical on his part even if it is the right thing to do.
An unpleasant episode for sure.
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Post by Vin Ahrr Vin on Nov 18, 2009 21:32:29 GMT -5
Suggesting that Ken now tells OP to cease publication would be a little hypocritical on his part even if it is the right thing to do. Well, that's exactly what Ken did. (See my other thread for the e-mail that he sent out through Trollmail.)  |
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Post by Branderwydd /|\ on Nov 18, 2009 21:37:05 GMT -5
something else interesting i stumbled across. go dig out your copy of dungeon magazine #9 (come on, you know you have it  ) and read the text of 'the djinni's ring' solo by vince garcia. then get out 'the djinni's power' solo credited to a mr. "that guy" sold at the OP site. let me know what you find. other than the superficial changes of place names to "that guy"'s take on trollworld what do you notice?
i have been directly told by the then publisher of dungeon magazine james jacobs that once an author sells the rights for an adventure to dungeon/TSR (now WOTC), the company retains all rights to it. there is no way OP could have legally gotten the rights to release it for T&T. seems OP didn't stop at illegally using others' art but dabbled in "converting" old D&D adventures to T&T without permission as well. if you read back through old posts here and at Paizo, you'll see this isn't the first time i've brought this issue up. i only do so again now because it seems people are finally read to listen.
i love T&T and i respect ken and rick. this really makes T&T look bad, and it isn't the first time these issues have been brought up. this is the just the LOUDEST these accusations have been voiced.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Nov 18, 2009 21:56:15 GMT -5
Vin, I spotted your post and I retract my statement. Boy what a sh*t storm...
Thanks for posting BTW, I do visit Trollhalla but the communication board is very hard to navigate.
Branderwydd that is very interesting. I suspect that James will be ruing the day he decided to list OP products on RPGnow/DriveThru...
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Post by mgtremaine on Nov 18, 2009 22:08:13 GMT -5
Hopefully it won't come down to that, "that guy" obviously is interested in publishing T&T whatever is takes. I'm going to guess that he'll figure out a way to continue without getting himself in trouble. But more interesting was the fact that the PDF releases has draw more attention and reached a far wider market then before. My hope is that this will give Rick the motivation needed to push more product out via PDF. -Mike Mike, can you perhaps put this to Rick? If there was any doubt about the power of PDF - it must surely be quashed now... I can certainly try, perhaps I should wait a day or two to see how this all plays out...  -Mike |
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Nov 18, 2009 22:10:18 GMT -5
Probably a good idea Mike. Thanks.
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Post by Toad-Killer-Dog on Nov 19, 2009 6:08:41 GMT -5
I guess I should probably say something on this subject, but really all I can say is that it makes me very sad.
I think I'll just keep out of all of this if its ok with everyone.
It would have been nice if some of my adventure or supplement length work had gotten published, but somehow I don't think that is very likely at this point.
Hopefully everyone makes it out of this without to much damage or lasting ill will.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Nov 19, 2009 6:31:16 GMT -5
T-K-D I'm sure your work will see light of day even if we put it up as a free PDF at Lulu or DriveThru!
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Nov 19, 2009 6:34:57 GMT -5
Mm'k. For the sake of brevity and that there's so much to cover, I'll dispense with using the quote function. I pray you forgive me. Hogscape, While Ken and Rick surely saw the art that doesn't mean they knew about it's origins. I really doubt they'd wish to sell their game, after running over 35 years, right up the ol' river, ya know? As far as ruing the day he put up OP products at RPGNow... Well, ya see what happens when my ranting has any effect. Lesson? Don't. Listen. To. MachFront. ;D Sorry... probably not a good time for jokes. Seriously, instead, he should rue the day he either: A) chose to use misappropriated art, or (and/or?) B) chose to make a poor decision on purchasing art in a deal he felt was too good to be true. branderwydd, It's good to see you back around and posting. You've been MIA for quite some time. Too bad your return is under these circumstances. What you report is....very disturbing. If one were to let that particular cat outta the bag (either on the RPG.net thread or elsewhere...) any shadow of doubt or 'maybe it is a case of naivete' would go right out the window. The crying for blood and gnashing of teeth would be legion. As it is, I'm 50/50 on whether that should 'get out there'. Actually...perhaps I'm more like 70/30 in favor of it. Man. All the TSR stuff belongs to Wizards of the Coast now... and they would cast quite a dim view on that. I wish I had to two products you mention so I could see for myself just how closely they resemble on another... I mean, are you talking like, "wow, you can really see the similarities" or "Well. That's the same exact thing."? Mike, I agree with mahrundl. On the one hand, this could have the potential to make Rick even more wary. But, put forward in a very logical way and with great care, it could very well open his eyes to the positives. Tread lightly and wisely and good luck.  TDK, Man, I understand. Ok. Maybe I don't, really. But I do sympathize, truly. However, this doesn't mean your excellent stuff won't or shouldn't see the light of day! As I stated before, you could submit it to Fight On! and I think you should. For your full-length stuff, you can format it and turn it into a pdf and upload it yourself to Lulu, or just offer them as pdfs. Either way. Oh, and Vin, the new forum icon up top looks much better!  |
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Nov 19, 2009 7:04:43 GMT -5
I think I was the one who sad "that company" was Ken's publisher of choice. What I said then was that OP was the publisher of choice for fan created T&T stuff. That is to say if one of us writes a T&T product and wants to publish it "that company" was where we should do so, due to their having a license and publishing facilities.
I asked Ken a while back where I should submit T&T stuff for publication, and he said "that company".
That situation may very well have changed. I am not sure what the final fall out will be.
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) and read the text of 'the djinni's ring' solo by vince garcia. then get out 'the djinni's power' solo credited to a mr. "that guy" sold at the OP site. let me know what you find. other than the superficial changes of place names to "that guy"'s take on trollworld what do you notice?
