Disgruntled: T&T is being handled poorly

[fizzwizz]

The most charitable thing I can say is that T&T is produced by enthusiastic amateurs. Rick, Ken and "that guy" are all key players and the relationship between them in a product-line sense is messy. Add in some less-than-stellar support by Fiery Dragon, and the upshot is that the game is falling through the cracks. Despite the appearance of liveliness caused by the same dozen people writing stuff, it's missing out on the "Old School Renaissance" and likely won't get passed down to the next generation of gamers.

What is to be done?

[machfront]

Well, I understand your frustration. Believe me, I do!
I guess it does seem messy, but really, the other editions being printed by "that company" are really there for major fans like us. Also, Rick just simply reprinted 5th ed. with extra stuff, calling 5.5. It may be too early, but I wouldn't really say that it's still "in print" or "current".
I realize how weird that sounds, but I can't think of another way to phrase it.

Fiery Dragon is printing the newest editions under licence. So who knows when that may end. I agree that the FDP support has been absolute ass, but they did what I thought they'd never do and that was to actually print the game again, in a new edition no less.

As far as the Old School Renaissance. I've thought about that too. The thing here is that folks seem to be more hungry for games that are no longer in print. T&T is in print.
Since T&T is not oop and isn't abandonware or what-have-you, then there's no point to do a retro-clone of T&T.
As odd as it may sound, I actually think that if T&T went out of print and someone did a retro-clone ala Labyrith Lord (for B/X D&D) that it would actually get more support.
Heck, if the actual supporters for T&T won't get out and advertise and get it in stores and have a nice, new, big website for the game, then someone else would probably do a better job with a T&T retro-clone game.

I can't believe that what I'm suggesting for the better future of T&T is for the game to "die". How odd.

I just think that for right now, the game needs to be pimped by the company who holds the license and is printing the recent edition of the game. Fiery Dragon, if they wanted this, needs to step up to the plate. It really isn't that hard to make a nice, attractive website. T&T really needs a central place. Not just a central place for die-hards like this fine forum. Places like this are great, and I'm glad they're around, but there needs to be a one-stop-shop for "regular" folks and casual gamers.


Is is my imagination or didn't Fiery Dragon have a forum section with a T&T sub-forum years ago?
They certainly don't now. That needs to be there to.

EDIT-
Allow me to also add that many times on forums like RPGnet and theRPGsite and others there have been threads started with folks asking for a simple, fun, rule-lite game. Most of the time T&T isn't even brought up, when it is it's often ignored, usually for being "silly" or too simplistic. If not, then someone will enevitably look into it and then come back asking about the two major version and which to buy, which is the "real" one and which is better and so on. This of course leads people to be honest, and that honesty entails saying that both are in print, but that the 7th edition is the direction of T&Ts future but it has no support whereas 5th edition is the "old" or "out of date" (for better or for worse, I'm not judging here, merely making a statement based on observation.), but it has plenty of adventures available for it. Someone may at some point mention that it isn't too hard to convert an adventure for one edition to the other and/or converting adventures and supplements of other games is no problem since T&T is so easy.
This usually still ends with the person feeling confused and unsure and they end up choosing another game.
I can understand. I mean, looking from the outside in, would you want to buy a new car if the seller told you it probably only had a few miles of life left in it and there was no warranty? People don't want to cast their lot if they'll be left out in the cold so to speak.

It's a real shame. It really, really is.

[fizzwizz]

It's true about people getting confused by the different in-print editions. I think the chance was missed when 5.5 and the 30 year anniversary edition came out in the same year. Before then, you could point to a 20-year history of a rock-solid edition. It just needed to be slightly revised and put into a format that could compete in terms of production values with other products on the shelves. And just call it T&T, not 9.03 or whatever. Nevertheless, it didn't happen.

Still, Traveller had an even greater edition mess, but the new Mongoose edition has brought a surprising amount of consensus. It shows that an old game can be reinvigorated with a well-produced new edition. That's not 7.5 though, despite its good points.

I don't have the answer, I just wish that those responsible for the game could admit some of these issues and show some vision.

[mahrundl]

Aug 23, 2008 5:22:40 GMT -5 fizzwizz said:

The most charitable thing I can say is that T&T is produced by enthusiastic amateurs. Rick, Ken and "that guy" are all key players and the relationship between them in a product-line sense is messy. Add in some less-than-stellar support by Fiery Dragon, and the upshot is that the game is falling through the cracks. Despite the appearance of liveliness caused by the same dozen people writing stuff, it's missing out on the "Old School Renaissance" and likely won't get passed down to the next generation of gamers.

What is to be done?

The things is, T & T is a niche game, and pretty much always has been. It has enjoyed only moderate success over the years, much less than the notoriety achieved by certain other RPGs, but it also hasn't gone corporate and turned into a bloated Frankenstein's monster that bears little or no resemblence to its roots. Given the choice between 'quietly successful' and 'corporate monstrosity', I know which I prefer.

I do agree that it could do with better - or, at least, more - marketing though. I'd certainly like to see it much more widely available in game stores.

In what way, other than not having its own retro-clone, do you see T & T missing out on the Old School Renaissance^TM? It's certainly old school, and a pretty strong case could be made that it's undergoing a renaissance, based on the amount of new material - most of which is of pretty high quality* - being produced. So what is it missing?

* (This is just my opinion, of course, but from what I've seen and heard from others, it's a fairly accurate statement.)

[fizzwizz]

Aug 23, 2008 9:15:43 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

In what way, other than not having its own retro-clone, do you see T & T missing out on the Old School Renaissance^TM? It's certainly old school, and a pretty strong case could be made that it's undergoing a renaissance, based on the amount of new material - most of which is of pretty high quality* - being produced. So what is it missing?

Well, I agree that T&T has always been a niche game, and I'm not expecting it to compete with DnD 4e. But it could sell more than it does, it could more be visible in stores and discussed online in places like rpg.net.

One reason it isn't is the physical presentation of the game. It's simply missing an industry-standard core rulebook. And let's face it, Flying Buffalo and "that company" simply don't produce products like other gaming companies, they produce 70s-zine style stuff. Then there is Outlaw's web address for example. A geocities site called "hobbit lands"? I applaud "that guy"'s untiring enthusiasm, but this is the stuff of a niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche, when T&T could at least be a niche-within-a-niche. The fan culture is cool, but it's keeping itself small.

I'm probably sounding more frustrated than I really feel, consider this a sigh and a shrug more than anything else...

[machfront]

mahrundl,

My own response to the question you posed (a very valid one) is basically the same as what fizzwizz just covered.

T&T does have the benefit of actually being in print and being written and updated by the originator of the game. It stands out in that respect. It should almost be a flagship of sorts for this Old School Renaissance. It's more than a little odd to me that it isn't.

I think those involved not only lack vision, but strength. To say something along the lines of "Ah..people will either like it or not" is all fine and good, but what good does it do if so very many people don't even know the game exists?!?
Heck even folks that know of it's existence still to this day think that the game went out of print sometime in the 80's.

I also have to echo fizzwizz with his observation on the "that company" website. I love the products, but they are indeed way, way within the hardcore fan arena.
Outlaw and Hobgoblin's Tavern puts out some great stuff and it is quality in content and presentation, but there still needs to be "official" support from the company producing the game.

Again, because I don't think this can be underestimated, there needs to be a professionally designed MAIN website for T&T.

I also don't think that it needs (or could) compete with the big, unweildy monsters of rpgs that are so popular, but it certainly could and should be doing so much better.

I'm also quite perplexed why there still isn't a hardbound. At least a print-on-demand one from the likes of Lulu. In my opinion.....there's just no excuse for there not to be.

[Mhegrrrim Skulltosser]

Interesting thread. I am glad to hear that people are concerned. T&T is a neat and flexible game for playing silly sessions to dark serious sessions. As long as people are concerned the game can survive. Caring is important.

This is a game whose creators find 5.0 to be just fine. The 5.0 box set and "5.5" rules are still readily available (I hate the label 5.5 because it is really 5.0 with more material from Ken. Perhaps a better name would have been 5.0 reprint plus). I agree Fiery Dragon has not helped enough with 7.0. Fiery Dragon is just too quiet and passive. Perhaps this is a licensing issue. Perhaps their own game rules are more important to them than T&T. Perhaps Fiery Dragon is just too busy with other projects. Either way, 7.0 is still attracting new blood. I do not think T&T has missed any resurgence of interest. People are being too passive about a favorite game.

An updated central website might be nice. At the same time, I wonder what are the expected benefits of a central website?

I would challenge you (who read this thread) to look at what more can you do? Are you asking your local game store about T&T? Are you running T&T adventures at Conventions? Do you encourage other gamers to join you in a game of T&T to show them the KISS style rules which allows the adventure to move forward instead of bogging down the game in rule-lawyering? Gasp! I need air. That was a long challenge

T&T survives because the fans have refused to let it die. TrollCon would not have happened had one fan not asked, "Do you think it is time for T&T to have its own convention?" Without that simple question, 20 people would not have gotten together to game with a dedicated core group of Heroic Fantasy players. Imagine what might happen if just those posting here offered to GM a T&T game at their local convention?

[machfront]

Mhegrrrim,

A fine post.
I realize I often sound very negative and fuss a lot (I'm just that way anyway), but the main reason I do it is because I dig the game so much and I don't dig it falling through the cracks.

Perhaps some new blood has come on board, but what about truely new blood? I'm 34 and I would think that I'm actually pretty darn young for a T&T player.

As far as the website benefits. Well.... where exactly do you tell a brand new T&T player to go to get all they need? Especially a person who is not only new to T&T but rpgs in general.
Do you give them the long list of all the standards?
I have to say, if I were a new player and saw the Flying Buffalo and Fiery Dragon websites, it wouldn't exactly instill confidence in the product or support of such, you know what I mean?

I agree also with you that the community at large can do much. That's great. There's already loads of really good and quality stuff out there in Hobbit Hole and on personal websites and so forth (and here, of course), but I still contend there needs to be more official support.

For myself, I don't feel I have what it takes to write well enough to contribute.
As for "recuiting" I've already done that. My group plays classic D&D, T&T and some of Deep7's 1PGs every so often. It's three people. And that's how many people I've even found to game with at all....in the last 8 years. Eight. Years.

Never been to a con. I'm a few miles and a few minutes away from DragonCon and have been all my life and have never had the slightest desire to go. Cons scare me. I've heard tales. Plus, I'm just not going to pay to walk around. Also, gaming with strangers gets my nerves rattled just thinking about it.

I've tried and tried to preach the benefits of rules-lite systems to some friends and acquaintances of mine that love D&D3E and 4E, but the way the talks go, they may as well have their fingers in their ears.
To them it would seem that rules-lite = rules-stupid.

[order99]

Not to insult your friends, Machfront...but they have commited Blasphemy. Stand aside, please.

(Inserts copy of T&T 4th ed. in Left Arm slot)
(Inserts copy of Holmes D&D in Right Arm slot)
(Inserts ENTIRE TWERPS COLLECTION in a single pouch in Neck slot)
(Inserts Amazing Engine Corebook in Belt slot)
( Inserts the Conan RPG, Pacesetter's Sandman RPG and Vampire Hunter$ into Backpack slot)
(drinks Potion of COFFEE)

Kindly inform your Heretical comrades that I await thier convenience in Encounter Area 5B....

(It is dark. Order99 is eaten by a Grue.)

Oh, yeah, should've packed a Torch, hold on-

(drinks Potion of COFFEE)
(drinks Potion of COFFEE)
(drinks Potion of COFFEE)
(drinks Potion of COFFEE)
(drinks Potion of COFFEE)
(drinks Potion of COFFEE)

(Grue must Save vs. Poison)
(Grue is Dead. XP= 455. GP=25)

Gah, out of COFFEE. I need to sell this exploded Grue pelt and restock my supply of Arabica Dark Roast at the Candlekeep JavaStop. But don't think this is over, oh no....

(Save Game? Y/N)

[castiglione]

I always thought the charm of T & T was that it was handled by amateurs.

[Mhegrrrim Skulltosser]

- Reading Order99's post -

Well I can see why Machfront might worry about meeting new gamers ;D LoL! I like your sense of humor Order99.

But this is what I love about the T&T community. It is a core group of people who seem to be really interesting. AND interesting in a way I might actually like to meet. (There are other kinds of interesting that I try to avoid)

I understand your point Machfront. At the very least, I would recommend that you STRONGLY consider TrollCon next year. There is almost no wandering around. You get to play with some really quality people like Kopfy, Perrryton, Khaid'haik, DragonWulf, Larry DiTillo, Ken St. Andre, Bear Peters, Mac, Byron and his brother and the list just keeps going. (If only Liz Danforth or Mike Stackpole had played too).

There were no crazies in the group at TrollCon. Indeed everyone is smart, clever, and well read. This group is the ideal for young gamers everywhere. People who grew up playing games and brought that passion to their fields of interest.

I do wish Rick could make more time available for T&T. His play by email (and play by mail) games and going to conventions soak up his time. If only he'd reach out to one of the community to rewrite his website. The only site more out of date is my own Dragon Horde.

There is a younger generation out there playing T&T. DragonWulf needs to bring T&T to his D&D group (people in their 20's I think. DragonWulf feel free to correct me and also feel free to turn those poor deluded souls back to the path of light-gaming). Plus people like me are teaching their children T&T. I even brought my son to TrollCon. DragonWulf made a great impression on the kid. He started out intimidated by the older crowd. By the end he was telling Ken what course of action he thought would be best. It was really fun to watch my 15 year old's confidence in the game increase.

Keep the torch burning Machfront.

[karluush]

I agree that a website needs to be made that'll serve as the focal point of T&T itself. Perhaps this the wakeup call FBI needs to redesign their terrible website that looks like something out of 1993.

But the main thing that irks me about T&T in general is the apparent lack of attention it receives from FBI. I understand that the company isn't its member's main source of income but they could at least republish a few things, or expand their Grimtooth or Catalyst line, as I always considered those T&T sourcebooks.

[machfront]

LMAO @ Order99's post! That's great!
You stay there. I'll tell them there's lots of punky-looking, shiney armours and oversized swords in there. You'll have your fill of over-confident adventurers, yet.


Oh, I'd love to meet all the folks. I'd love to play T&T with long-time T&T players. I don't know if my phobia of flying will allow that. Or my wallet.

I'm glad to hear about your son, Mhegrrrim. I'm sure there are other grooming there own young ones with T&T (I hope).

Karluush,
I agree. It seems like it's sort of a "just there" thing. But I dunno. I can't pretend to know or understand the inner workings of these honorable folks.
More of the Catalyst line would be aces by me. I love the Citybooks, especially. I certainly wish there were more such system-neutral supplements out there than there are. It boggles the mind. You'd think that would be the sort of thing that most folks would want, but... I guess not. Guess they like all the work done for them. *shrugs*

EDIT:
As another aside... I don't mean to be a downer, but... I often wonder what exactly will happen to T&T when Ken and Rick are no longer with us. I pray that that's quite a ways off, but still... I have to wonder...

[mahrundl]

A bunch of good points by lots of people.

Mhegrrrim: A central website would be handy if it was something that was easy for people to remember or deduce. It's less of an issue than it was B.G. (Before Google), for those who remember such a dark age, but it's still worth something.

Interesting side note: www.tunnelsandtrolls.com is owned by Rick Loomis. But it doesn't even redirect to the Flying Buffalo site! That strikes me as a waste of a useful URL.

Machfront: I'm much like you, as far as cons and gaming with strangers goes. One of my (many) psychological quirks is that I find it almost impossible to initiate conversation with someone to whom I have not been formally introduced. You can imagine how handy *that* is in a con situation! (It's bad enough when just shopping - if the sales person doesn't speak to me first, I'll probably leave the shop empty-handed.) I'm fortunate(?) that it seems to be mostly the initial ice-breaking that is a problem, and I can communicate reasonable well thereafter.

Order99: I want some of the drugs that you're on. Even if it is just coffee...

Mhegrrrim: I have to agree that anyone who can realistically make it to TrollCon should do so. However, last I checked it would cost me about $3000 just to get into the same country as the con, let alone the state and city. If it was $1000 or so, I'd make the effort, but barring a X-Lotto win, I just can't spare that sort of money.

Regarding the Flying Buffalo website: Anecdotal evidence suggests that Rick is perfectly happy with it as it is, and did not take kindly to suggestions that it should be revamped.

More 'system neutral' products? A worthy idea, and one that I support. That said, I much prefer seeing products that are done just for one system, as long as they are designed for that system. Not just 'compatible with', but built with the unique flavour of that system in mind. It's a primary reason why Sorcerer Solitaire is one of my favourite T & T solos - it captures much of the essence of T & T, for me.

When Ken and Rick leave us: I suspect that Ken's son (James, if I remember rightly) will 'inherit' T & T from his father. What that would mean to the game, I do not know. He might be willing to keep the core T & T community involved as they are now. If someone else 'inherits', who knows?

I have no idea what will happen when Rick fails his last SR - I assume that Flying Buffalo will be taken over by someone else, or possibly closed down. I'd hope that T & T would continue on, supported by Flying Buffalo, or perhaps in the public domain.

But that's all highly speculative, and as Machfront said, hopefully a good long time in the future...

[gamepunk26]

Aug 23, 2008 18:03:35 GMT -5 Mhegrrrim Skulltosser said:

I would challenge you (who read this thread) to look at what more can you do? Are you asking your local game store about T&T? Are you running T&T adventures at Conventions? Do you encourage other gamers to join you in a game of T&T to show them the KISS style rules which allows the adventure to move forward instead of bogging down the game in rule-lawyering? Gasp! I need air. That was a long challenge

I am running T&T at Strategicon this Labor Day weekend. I will be running T&T at every Strategicon that I attend. There are three each year and I plan on attending at least two. I will be running T&T at Neoncon this October and at Conquest Vegas next spring. I was reintroduced to the game at Strategicon Labor Day 2007 where I played a game with Mr. Rick loomis himself. That alone was almost unbelievable. I want to introduce T&T to as many people as I can thru conventions.
That I singlehandedly reinvigorated RPG interest in my gaming group thru T&T is a huge accomplishment. We have more GMs stepping up to run games now than we have had in years. I am the only T&T GM, but any of the members will play. They love it.