machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 13, 2009 7:31:49 GMT -5
You guys are right. It isn't exactly necessary now. As I said, I'm mostly concerned about the future of the game. Still, even though most would want the real deal, even if a clone was available along side it, wouldn't it increase visibility? I mean, FBI and FDP aren't doing any kind of advertising and pod and only FDP is doing pdfs. (wow...that's a lot of 3 letter acronyms.....lol  ) If not a clone, then an argument for an OGL still stands and would, I think, have the same result: increased visibility and interest. |
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Sept 13, 2009 11:26:34 GMT -5
At the risk of being deemed a heretic. Why must the game remain forver fixed at 5th edition?
Does it matter to *us* if a broader audience "out there" discovers the game?
I supplements and new source material are such a desirable thing, why aren't *we* writing them?
It seems very likely that a deal could be worked out with Rick, "that guy" and Ken to publish any new material we come up with. Others have done it.
If any of you believe that a 5th ed OGL clone will do more good than harm to the T&T community, then write it up and publish it.
This whole discussion is just a pointless waste of electrons if no-one is going to do anything.
I have gotten an umbe of new monsters published in HH and DD with Ken's blessing upon them. All you need to do is write them up and submit them.
If you want T&T to have a vibrant following, start growing it. Where are the T&T blogs, web pages etc?
Get out there and promote the game. Put something out there so that people can see T&T is stil alive. One discusion board does not a vibrant game community make.
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Post by jongjungbu on Sept 13, 2009 11:44:24 GMT -5
Where are the T&T blogs, web pages etc? Workin on it, in my own rinky-dink style. You've definitely got a lot of good points there. Maybe there are some who don't want to have to go through channels directly with Ken and so forth to release published material. I don't know, I'm just tossing thoughts here.  |
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Sept 13, 2009 19:43:46 GMT -5
Truly Open Open Game License Edition
Version 1.0.1
This version of Truly Open Open Game License is hereafter called TOOGLE. The reader or user or anybody else using anything covered by TOOGLE will hereafter be called YOU.
TOOGLE is a very serious document and YOU must include this document with all derivative works based on anything produced under TOOGLE.
YOU agree:
1. YOU must not change TOOGLE or add or remove anything within TOOGLE.
2. If YOU can not honour TOOGLE, YOU will not use TOGGLE.
3. YOU will give all credit to those who's TOOGLE work YOU use. These details will be included in that work. YOU will use the Name and Contact Details format.
TOOGLE Credits
Kevin Bracey: P O Box 230, Hokitika, New Zealand. Any Addition Data Here.
4. YOU may use anything covered by TOOGLE for any lawful/good purpose, provided that the resulting work is also covered by TOOGLE.
5. TOOGLE is for collaborative works.
6. While TOOGLE is completely unenforceable, it is agreed that a minor demon from the outer rings of Hell will torment YOUR soul day and night until YOU comply.
7. TOOGLE is a TOOGLE Document.
TOOGLE Credits
Kevin Bracey: P O Box 230, Hokitika, New Zealand.
END OF TOOGLE
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Post by jongjungbu on Sept 13, 2009 20:09:22 GMT -5
I just played a game of TOOGLE last weekend. I almost won too! d**n, that anti-sepharim in the 7th Ring of Hell bested all of us, even though YOU rolled 5 successful Anti-Saviour Rolls and recovered the TOOGLE.
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Post by ProfGremlin on Sept 13, 2009 21:59:46 GMT -5
Truly Open Open Game License Edition Interesting idea, quoghmyre. It's certainly a decent basis for building collaborative works here. Now, I'm not certain if you meant this as satire or in earnest as black text on a screen doesn't hold much in the way of nuance. So, I'll just say thanks for the effort and offer one little comment: Lawful Good |
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 14, 2009 1:26:53 GMT -5
At the risk of being deemed a heretic. Why must the game remain forver fixed at 5th edition? It doesn't. A few of us like and use 7 instead. Does it matter to *us* if a broader audience "out there" discovers the game? I supplements and new source material are such a desirable thing, why aren't *we* writing them? It seems very likely that a deal could be worked out with Rick, "that guy" and Ken to publish any new material we come up with. Others have done it. And part of working it out with Rick is "no OGL"... Seriously, tho', there is a lot of material available, and more going up slowly at DTRPG. My adventures are not publication quality. They are good, but they lack the detail level needed for someone else to pick up and run them. Everything else goes up on my website... free to use. If any of you believe that a 5th ed OGL clone will do more good than harm to the T&T community, then write it up and publish it. This whole discussion is just a pointless waste of electrons if no-one is going to do anything. If someone learns something, it's no waste, even if no product grows out of it. I have gotten an umbe of new monsters published in HH and DD with Ken's blessing upon them. All you need to do is write them up and submit them. And accept "that guy"'s publication and payment schedule. If you want T&T to have a vibrant following, start growing it. Where are the T&T blogs, web pages etc? Get out there and promote the game. Put something out there so that people can see T&T is stil alive. One discusion board does not a vibrant game community make. I've plugged 5.5, 7.0, and 7.5 on my blogs and on the Kenzer&Co boards. I've recommended T&T at least a dozen times in the last week on the RPGGeek boards (RPG.geekdo.com) And you? |
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Sept 14, 2009 7:25:43 GMT -5
I have a T&T blog and plug the game when I can. I am not as active in the role playing community as I used to be. I am teaching my daughter how to play.
I am puzzled by the emphasis on an OGL version of T&T. The Trolls Companion currently available on DTRPG is not OGL afik. Certainly direct publishing as Boozer does for Hobgoblin's Tavern in the UK or on DTRPG is an available option for those who don't want to go through "that guy".
I think a clone version of the rules now could hurt sales. Why buy the game if you can have a clone cheaper? Of course the quick start rules are already widely available for free.
Of course T&T has never been the sort of game that requires endles splat books to keep itself going. The broad character Types instead of narrow Classes has a lot to do with that, as do SRs as a universal task resolution system and the Peters-McAlistair chart for Kindred. And the game already has an increadibly divese selection of weapons etc. MR has meant a lack of a *need* for a monster manual. One of the greatest things about 7e was the special damage for monsters. It really opens things up for those who like to play with crunchy monster design.
Spells, monsters, kndred seem to be the most wide open areas for development, as are "alternate" Trollworlds. How interesting these will be to other playing groups is a difficult question to answer. Writing up a game worl in sufficent detail for someone else to use it is a monstrous undertaking, doing it without leaving the other fellow feeling straight-jacketed by your design is even harder.
Right now there is effectively one publisher for new T&T material. That is "that company". I would ove o see another publisher for solos, monsters, etc. A viable T&T e-zine would be a great thing for our game. Especially something that could be put out in the broader gaming community for people to find who may not know about T&T yet. I think most current T&T players who are on-lne know about the Trollbridge, Trollhalla, "that company", FBI, Firey Dragon, etc. New comers to the game may not, and let's face it Hobbit Hole and Dungeneers Digest do come with a substantial price point hurdle.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 15, 2009 5:12:33 GMT -5
Well, I think Aramis answered things that I was going to tackle in regards to your previous post. Most importantly that, neither I nor anyone else is wanting the game to be "stuck" at 5th ed. The purpose was/is to make sure that the strongest and longest-lived version of T&T doesn't get lost in the recent edition shuffle and/or die out and be forgotten. I don't mean to be rude, but I can't think of another way to write this, but... did you even read what I said? But anyway, as I stated in my last post, yes, I don't think a clone is necessary right now at this very moment, but the need for one may approach sooner than later. Time will tell. Of course, I could argue that yes, it may hurt sales, but honestly, T&T can only go up in visibility. I may argue that I'd rather a T&T clone actually be much more widely known that the 'real deal' to be forever stuck underneath the bottom shelf. Yes, there are people a companies creating and selling things, but a highly-visible clone (or whatever) could only increase the fanbase, excite both the new and old hands which in turn would/could lead to more creativity and more published material. But the same thing would likely happen if certain folks actually..ya know...advertised. Crazy, mad idea, I know...but I hear it works sometimes. But the most important thing, as above, is this: Especially something that could be put out in the broader gaming community for people to find who may not know about T&T yet. I think most current T&T players who are on-lne know about the Trollbridge, Trollhalla, "that company", FBI, Firey Dragon, etc. New comers to the game may not, and let's face it Hobbit Hole and Dungeneers Digest do come with a substantial price point hurdle. Exactly my point. This is what either heavier and more advertising with some amount of zeal or a clone with same, would do. Oh, and it wouldn't just be 1. current T&T players who are 2. on the 'net. The crux of the whole deal is expansion. To stop sitting on your nuts. Obviously, the actually best case scenario is for someone...anyone to advertise the holy mess outta T&T as it always should have. For a pdf and print on demand book(s) to be made available for 5th ed. For some type of agreement to be worked on by Rick that basically says to whomever the game is passed on to, that by agreeing with it, if they wish to own the game and sell the game that they must make it available, unaltered for as long has they are around, and that, failing that or passing the torch, the same agreement is forwarded. Perhaps a caveat could be included that someone could, if they wish, instead of selling it, OGL it and make the pdf at least totally free. Etc.,etc. Since the likelihood of that occuring is about as likely as Fiery Dragon releasing an actual book of T&T instead of a little thing about the quality of a children's Flintstones dictionary or as likely as FDP caring about T&T or advertising, then, what will likely occur is 5th ed. dying as soon as Mr. Loomis passes. Or, being passed to "that guy", he then inserts his own stuff into it, or otherwise messes with it. What makes that even worse, is that when he's gone, or if he simply goes out of business, then 5th ed. disappears anyway. The purpose of an OGL and/or a clone is, and apparently I can't say it enough: Perpetuity! |
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 15, 2009 5:31:41 GMT -5
Also, I feel I need to add: Why all the talking and no doing? First, as I said, I don't think it really has to be done now. Second, it's a discussion forum. I wanted to discuss it. I wanted to put my thoughts and opinions out there and I wanted to hear others thoughts and opinions. I though it was worthy at least of discussion and debate. |
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Sept 15, 2009 6:41:58 GMT -5
Mach,
Yes, I read what you wrote. I was responding to the thread as a whole.
Forgive me for perhaps daring to voice a disenting view.
The whole question of the T&T rules being available in perpetuity is moot if the only people who want them are us, we already have them. With no further demand for T&T availability will be a dead letter. I think the D&D clones come from gamers who grew up playing the earlier editions rejecting the current editio, and younger gamers percieving the clones as vital and alive.
Currently I do not see T&T as vital and alive. Firey Dragon seems to be primarilly recycling cut down version of OP books, and OP is small and obscure. I have both 7.5 and the full OP versions of the two codices and the OP versions are definitely better.
If, as I suspect, the FD boxes are the only T&T material that *may* be on game shop shelves, and RPGnow etc have only a few old solos the game is going to look pretty moribund. The D&D clones have vast reams of supplements, discussion forums, etc. The T&T yahoo groups are al virtually dead. There are nly two active discussion forums, and one of those is not so much a discussion of T&T, but more a social club of T&T fans.
It may be that T&T's greatest strenth is working against it. With all monsters reducible to MR (although in 7e there is the possibility of special damage) and all the rules needed, ever, being contained in the rule book, there is not a real need for expansion material. From lack of demand springs lack of supply. Why put all the work into solos etc that are unlikely to sell in huge numbers?
The T&T paradigm just doesn't fit well with the current RPG market paradigm.
I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and expand my "Rough Guide to T&T" into something conaining an example seting and adventure, putting the principles outlined in the guide into practice and offer it up for sale on DTRPG, RPGnow, etc.
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Post by jongjungbu on Sept 15, 2009 7:50:42 GMT -5
I do agree/think they should utilize RPGnow/DriveThruRPG's watermarked PDF's more than they are now. Or more than they plan to. I don't know what it is holding that up, the fact that FBI still has some print copies in house of other solos? Not all of them. Now, myself, I have the FBI 24, so it's not as big a deal for me personally. However, I know other people that have yet to acquire them, and some of them I think the younger geekier crowd may like to do it all on the computer. PDF + Grrraall's uploaded T&T applications equals completely electronic free-form delving. Especially with the abridged rules available for free. (One thing to note is I still helped the T&T market even though I already had these solos I still bought the PDF's so I could have digital copies too, practically forever. I essentially paid for them twice then and I see that as a potential market too...preservation. And the collector in me has been buying more than one copy of various solos in print again) |
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 15, 2009 20:15:25 GMT -5
Mach, Yes, I read what you wrote. I was responding to the thread as a whole. Oh, ok. It seemed like you honestly didn't understand what I felt the point was, 's'all. Forgive me for perhaps daring to voice a disenting view. Oh, no,no,no. Don't misunderstand. I wasn't taking you to task or saying you were wrong or that I was right. Just supporting my view. Nothing more. The whole question of the T&T rules being available in perpetuity is moot if the only people who want them are us, we already have them. With no further demand for T&T availability will be a dead letter. I think the D&D clones come from gamers who grew up playing the earlier editions rejecting the current editio, and younger gamers percieving the clones as vital and alive. Who says the only people that want the game, or will, or could want the game is us? That's part of the problem. The reason there is an "us", or more appropriately, "only us", is symptomatic of the problem. I believe T&T would get more love if it was more 'out there in the wild'. I mean, people love the very loose and simple OD&D retro-clone, Swords & Wizardry, and love modern lite games like Risus and Feung Shui and so on. Honestly, I think that a lot of folks still think T&T is a weak and watered-down "D&D ripoff". Besides, making it available for forever means it will be there if at some point it could be there 'at the right place at the right time'. Something of that nature absolutely can't happen if all the pages to all the books have long since turned to dust. Currently I do not see T&T as vital and alive. Firey Dragon seems to be primarilly recycling cut down version of OP books, and OP is small and obscure. And I can't agree with this strongly enough. This is exactly what I'm talking about, and exactly what I'm saying should be and could be improved....a lot. It may be that T&T's greatest strenth is working against it. With all monsters reducible to MR (although in 7e there is the possibility of special damage) and all the rules needed, ever, being contained in the rule book, there is not a real need for expansion material. Another long-standing mistake of T&T gamers/supporters. Just because MR creatures can be easily created by anyone, and just because one can easily convert/expand/make up whatever, doesn't mean that people don't want it anyway. For one, MR comes built-in with it's own problem that a creature collection or three could have gone some way to helping, and that is MR alone can be quite bland. Even if you add an SR-triggered ability or attack, or special abilites such as in 7.x, one monster with the same numbers is the same as another. Some creative descriptions and a mixture between MR only, MR and CON, MR, CON and armor, MR + 'make an SR to avoid such-n-such' and MR + 7.x-style special abilites and any others besides would have done T&T a great service, whether it was released in 1976 or 2006 (of course, it goes without saying that the best time would have been 1980). Similar answer for game expansion in general. T&T seems quiet and still because, for a long time, it has been. Everybody said: "Oh, it's so easy, I don't need all that extra stuff." but, see, a lot of people wanted it. Heck, one of my first questions when I saw T&T was: "Where's the monster section? Oh, there isn't one? Suck." This was despite already having read and understood how easy it was to come up with monsters. The T&T paradigm just doesn't fit well with the current RPG market paradigm. Whereas I think now is a perfect time for T&T to exploit as I think it actually fits in just right for the current market. But I'm in no position of power to take advantage... |
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Sept 16, 2009 0:09:23 GMT -5
Excuse my ignorance could someone explain what you mean by "clone", please?
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 16, 2009 2:59:56 GMT -5
Excuse my ignorance could someone explain what you mean by "clone", please? A game that, for the most part, functions just like the item it is a clone of, but avoids use of the trademarks and distinctive trade dress. They involve complete rewrites, generally, but are, in play, functionally the same game. Some are pretty darned close, many are merely "close". OSRIC, for example, is about 95% the same rules as AD&D1E; it is about 5% the same text, and that's stuff filtered in via the D&D3 based d20 SRD. It feels, in play, exactly like AD&D except for the missing classes. Basic Fantasy is about 90% the same rules as Red-book Basic Set D&D, and about 5% text... but the feel in use is about 99% the same as red book basic. |
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