machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 10, 2009 5:41:05 GMT -5
In cruising the flotsam and jetsam at Trollhalla, I see there's a bit of discussion of an OGL for T&T. Most importantly, Ken posted a quote from Rick Loomis concerning this. Here's what Rick said:
Sad. The man thinks that someone...anyone...would actually pay thousands of dollars for a T&T license for whatever reason.
Sadder still that so many at Trollhalla clearly don't understand either OGL or what is and isn't covered legally with regards to rpgs. (Forgive me for being so frank and negative, but Trollhalla is a dangerous and incestuous echo chamber that, from what I've seen, helps to keep T&T down and also seems to be complicit in "that company"'s iron grip over what is and is not "official" T&T nowadays. That makes me itch.)
Here's what's rather unfortunate for Rick. He wants no OGL. He's afraid of it being hobby-centric and keeping business opportunities at bay. One...there will likely be no such business opportunities. Two...if the hobby market is 'given' T&T, it can do nothing but good for T&T, and very likely increase it visibility and popularity which may very well lead to business opportunities that otherwise wouldn't stir.
Three... he doesn't understand that he can't keep T&T held tightly to his chest...nor can "that guy" for that matter... because T&T can be easily and legally cloned, even without an OGL. Mechanics are not copyrightable. All T&T has and can protect is it's 'product identity', of which it has very little besides it's own name and spell names. The Saving Roll, so long as it's given another name (but perhaps not even that), is a mechanic and thus is already open to any of us. Same with the combat system. The spell point system. The MR system.
If I wished to be truly brutal, I'd say that what really needs to happen is a T&T 5th ed. clone. Therefore, the game can actually be out there. Available. In print. Print on demand. Free pdf. Have it's own OGL which gives full permission to be used as a base for other games, to make it easy for others...any others... to publish supplements and adventures.
Maybe the Trollhalla crowd needs to peek around at the what's going on with all the retro-clones and the still expanding market and growing popularity of the Old School Renaissance in general. That T&T...the second rpg ever created...the oldest still in existence... is not involved in this is really, really pathetic and a horribly ill-informed mistake. T&T has already missed the ground floor in 2007...it better jump on now or it will be lost and continue to weaken until nothing is left.
To say I'm angry and saddened is quite an understatement.
Luckily, when T&T disappears after Ken and Rick pass away (and I believe it will unless they make moves to allow the game to continue for the future), someone will likely take it upon themselves to create a T&T clone. Hopefully, it will be a quality work, as Labyrinth Lord is for 1981 Basic and Expert D&D.
Otherwise it will fall to "that company", and I'm less and less comfortable with that as time goes on. Having one guy who honestly believes that Kaball is the official version of Trollworld (his own words), in control of actual "official" T&T, as I said, makes me itch. It brings to mind images of horrible quality art and good art that looks bad because of low-quality rendering, sloppy or no editing, loads of 'official-ness' and other vile things.
As Dan Proctor stated pertaining to the Labyrinth Lord rules, far besides publishing and being currently in print, the purpose was to make certain those rules would be available in perpetuity. They would, and thanks to his efforts will always be available, even after he himself is long since turned to dust. Ya see...precisely because of the clones, Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord and OSRIC...Original D&D, B/X D&D, and AD&D 1st ed., will be around....forever. Not only that, but in a 'frozen in time' manner. Not only that, but in a presentation of very high quality and a structure that is about 98.5% exactly the same as the first originals (can't be 100% because of legal issues).
T&T will not be around forever, and certainly not in it's tried and true best form, 5th ed., unless either OGL is utilized, someone clones it regardless, and/or pdfs and print-on-demand is embraced.
It's depressing to watch the death of something that need not die, and more...that could actually grow and strengthen.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Sept 10, 2009 5:52:31 GMT -5
Well, I read the whole epic post and I couldn't agree more. It sounds like Rick want's to put the game out to stud but he's put it out to pasture by mistake. Asleep at the wheel?
You're right, there's already a T&T clone out there 'TAG' it uses ST (saving throw) instead of SR (saving roll). And if there's room for one, is there room for 2?
Alas despite having numerous supplements TAG suffers from the writer's 'stream of consciousness' style. It seems he writes a whole bunch of stuff then moves on to the next project without having a look at the 'stuff' left on the page behind him. I really tried but I couldn't fathom combat, experience or any of the other staples...
One of the posters at Trollhalla proposed that OGL was not required since the only people producing material for the game were already at Trollhalla... *holds head in hands*
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 10, 2009 6:34:59 GMT -5
Ah, yes. The only people producing material are already at Trollhalla. What in the world kind of argument is that? The only people who need gas are people at filling stations. What? Oh, and the only place gas needs to be placed and made available to are filling stations. *groan*
Interestingly, Dark Isles is already a setting-specific Fourth Editon clone and, given it's presentation and slight rules changes, could be legally published. However, obviously, I'm talking about a clone that would cut much, much closer to the original (in this case, Fifth Edition).
Rick's no fool. I mean, he's kept T&T alive for well over thirty years despite it's low popularity and visibility. But he certainly needs to be gently 'schooled' on OGL and on the Old School Renaissance and the retro-clones (and the growing acknowledgement, excitement and market for the games and the movement).
I'd hate to do a clone of 5th without a blessing. Even though it would be legal (and Rick couldn't afford to fight anyone in court anyhow). It may...may...earn someone ill will with the T&T community, even if that someone was doing it, (as I can personally say, I would, were I to) for love of the game and the purpose of making certain it was available and unalterable, but open to other versions to be published, in perpetuity.
He says he wants companies to buy a license...but does he not see that an OGL would provide the impetus for folks to do so? With an OGL someone could, with it's legal 'blessing', make a 99% identical 5th ed. clone or something like Dark Isles (with the T&T name right on it to boot) and other versions and editions (such as was the case for Spycraft and Castles & Crusades and other d20 games that sell quite well...
We need someone of Dan Proctor or Stuart Marshall quality to write and edit and present something of high merit, and it sounds like the TAG author is not that guy.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Sept 10, 2009 7:29:56 GMT -5
Mach I made the point about OGL and retro clones (quite eloquently for me) in an editorial of Hobbit Hole (can't remember which one). I called it "The Stars Are Right!" In which I drew a comparison between a free retro clone that had over 2,500 downloads and dozens of fan supported materials (Basic Fantasy) and the languishing T&T. I suggested that T&T should be released as a free PDF/print-on-demand with the owners reaping the benefits of material created by third parties.
I also asked: why T&T was closeted away like some private elite club instead of having a vibrant online community (there is one but it's not officially supported) with bags of free online support?
The following issue, Ken came back with quite a savage 'right of reply' - hey my original editorial was a bit vicious (although I prefer 'passionate')... Bottom line was along the line of 'when hell freezes over'.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 10, 2009 7:54:16 GMT -5
I remember that!!! That was in the first issue of HH I ever bought. My, how the time flies. What was that...two years or more ago?
And, yes, I don't even need to re-read it. You did. I was nodding my head the whole way through as I recall.
I don't own the following issue, so I haven't seen Ken's reply, but that's a major disappointment. I didn't think what you wrote was vicious in the slightest.
These folks need only take a look at the creative and burgeoning communities, one-man companies and materials being produced for even just one of the retro-clones to see that it's folly not to engage in similar activity. (unless they want T&T to stay in the back, picking it's nose and being chosen last for the touch football game)
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Post by ragnorakk on Sept 10, 2009 13:41:25 GMT -5
Frustrating, ain't it? Man, when I started reading that stuff there, I wanted to knock heads together - any and all within reach. What to do? What to do? A clone obviously wouldn't be that hard to do - the rules are so few! Could be a one-page thingy maybe even! Would this be another 'unofficial' version?
One thing though that I picked up from the discussion is that Mr. Loomis is more inclined to OK things that are already written, than proposals and such. It doesn't look like anyone is going to sway him from his anti-OGL stance... the whole thing just makes me feel less inclined to work on stuff (at least with any thought of publishing/self-publishing, etc...)
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Post by Toad-Killer-Dog on Sept 10, 2009 14:10:16 GMT -5
Would it be possible to do a limited license that would restrict production of things like video games, fiction or the specific setting of "Ralph"? If it was limited to only RPG material perhaps it would be more acceptable?
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 10, 2009 19:43:23 GMT -5
It would be quite easy for Rick to make a form of open license, one that only allowed producing supplements... but it doesn't matter, since all an OGL does is reduce your risk of being sued and limit your options.
And 95% of those suits are settled out of lack of ability to fight, not out of plaintiff merits.... The law is pretty clear. The mechanics are not protected; the setting can be, and the written expression of the rules is, as are the distinctive trademarks.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Sept 10, 2009 21:00:19 GMT -5
An OGL is certainly possible and probably quite legal.
It would unfortunately offend some people I rather admire, so I won't.
My original worry (and the worry of some others here I think) is that-sometime in the future-nobody will be able to purchase their favorite RPG anymore. In the event that something happens to Ken, Rick and the others, FBI, Fiery Dragon and "that company" all fold and Ebay stocks begin to try up...the OGL option is always there. Until that happens though, I don't see a need since (unlike Classic/Advanced D&D, Marvel Superheroes or Zeb Cook's Conan etc) I can buy as much T&T stuff as the current catalogs(and my wallet) allow.
In the meantime, i'll make as many variations of T&T or MS&PE as I like, for private use only-pretty much what every GM, ever, has done with every RPG ever made. If I ever think I have something worthy of publishing, Hobbit Hole has a submissions policy in place already-and if I think that I have a really great and original T&T variant game that the world must see, well, i'll send some e-mails and ask permission, The original creators and current caretakers of T&T seem quite reasonable when giving permission for things-remember when "that company" was actually "that company", and how painlessly the matter was resolved?
In short, I think an OGL of an existing, in-print system would just be, well, rude. Runequest OGL vs Runequest by Mongoose comes to mind...
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Sept 10, 2009 21:33:22 GMT -5
Order99... I was 100% in favour of OGL until I read your post, now I'm not sure...
So what we really need to do is take out Ken and Rick then bankrupt "that guy"... Right, who wants to do what?
*joking guys*
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unclecranky
5th Level Troll
(mutter...grumble)
Posts: 657
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Post by unclecranky on Sept 11, 2009 3:19:29 GMT -5
Okay, to take the points in order: One: While it's true that game mechanics are not copyrightable, they ARE trademarkable, and patentable. I believe Loomis has done both. While you could theoretically still make a clone, or release them onto the 'net, there is legal precedent for him suing the ...soy sauce out of you for doing it. Two: It's true that OGL can do a lot of good for T&T in bringing it into the public eye. The problem is that when it's out there, people can easily decide to 'clone it' and publish it profitably for themselves, effectively stealing away a good chunk of change from Loomis, and not incidentally, Ken and the Trollhallans, who are, after all, producing goodies for us to buy. Three: Believe it or not, the question of the future of the game is very much on the mind of Ken and everybody at Trollhalla. It's come to their attention that they're not getting younger, and that plans need to be made. And as has been amply demonstrated here and elsewhere, including Trollhalla, not everyone is convinced Kaball is, or should be, the 'official' T&T gameworld. It infuriates me no end when I hear "that guy" (or anybody else) talking that way.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 11, 2009 5:52:58 GMT -5
One thing though that I picked up from the discussion is that Mr. Loomis is more inclined to OK things that are already written, than proposals and such. Also very true. I should have at least pointed that out amongst my rants, though I'd guess most of us know that Mr. Loomis is quite amiable and if you ask or say, "Hey, I've got this cool thing for T&T I wanna share." it certainly seems more often than not that he smiles and says: "Cool." Would it be possible to do a limited license that would restrict production of things like video games, fiction or the specific setting of "Ralph"? If it was limited to only RPG material perhaps it would be more acceptable? I'd bet that he could do that. A printed product OGL, ya mean? That way, nothing would happen outside of that area that he couldn't be in complete and total control of. And 95% of those suits are settled out of lack of ability to fight, not out of plaintiff merits.... The law is pretty clear. The mechanics are not protected; the setting can be, and the written expression of the rules is, as are the distinctive trademarks. Truth. The trick is that it's really more the sum of the parts. One could change one or nothing of a given mechanic, but if the whole thing as a total far too much resembled the original, it might be...'suspect'. Of course, that's ok, since Matt Finch worked to not have too much of a 'sum' with regards to OD&D and S&W is still a pretty solid OD&D clone. Dan's Labyrinth Lord has so little changes that a group that played a campaign of B/X and then another campaign of LL wouldn't notice a significant difference in play at the table. My original worry (and the worry of some others here I think) is that-sometime in the future-nobody will be able to purchase their favorite RPG anymore. In the event that something happens to Ken, Rick and the others, FBI, Fiery Dragon and "that company" all fold and Ebay stocks begin to try up...the OGL option is always there. Until that happens though, I don't see a need since (unlike Classic/Advanced D&D, Marvel Superheroes or Zeb Cook's Conan etc) I can buy as much T&T stuff as the current catalogs(and my wallet) allow. That is true, but that's why I'm talking about the future of the game. Plus, I don't think sales of GORE has stopped anyone from buying in-print CoC or Basic Roleplay nor oop copies of Elric! or Stormbringer. Though not a direct clone, there's Mutant Future, and though much changed...isn't Gamma World still recently in print? Heck, for that matter, as popular as S&W and LL are, have you seen the recent prince increase of OD&D sets? Plus, there's never a shortage of cheap copies of B/X on eBay. (Yes, these are out of print, but the point still stands that there are those that would much rather have "the Real McCoy". Besides...we still don't know yet if there will even ever be another print run of 5.5. What if the last one is the last? In the meantime, i'll make as many variations of T&T or MS&PE as I like, for private use only-pretty much what every GM, ever, has done with every RPG ever made. If I ever think I have something worthy of publishing, Hobbit Hole has a submissions policy in place already-and if I think that I have a really great and original T&T variant game that the world must see, well, i'll send some e-mails and ask permission, The original creators and current caretakers of T&T seem quite reasonable when giving permission for things-remember when "that company" was actually "that company", and how painlessly the matter was resolved? Yes, variations have been recently authored and supplements and adventures have been released, and even though I think a much more visible and strongly supported and trumpeted clone would facilitate more, the most important factors to me are: perpetuity and keeping 5th 'in the game' (especially in light of 7.x and WizWar). So what we really need to do is take out Ken and Rick then bankrupt "that guy"... Right, who wants to do what? *joking guys* Heh heh. Meet the Budda...kill the Budda. Okay, to take the points in order: One: While it's true that game mechanics are not copyrightable, they ARE trademarkable, and patentable. I believe Loomis has done both. While you could theoretically still make a clone, or release them onto the 'net, there is legal precedent for him suing the ...soy sauce out of you for doing it. Two: It's true that OGL can do a lot of good for T&T in bringing it into the public eye. The problem is that when it's out there, people can easily decide to 'clone it' and publish it profitably for themselves, effectively stealing away a good chunk of change from Loomis, and not incidentally, Ken and the Trollhallans, who are, after all, producing goodies for us to buy. Three: Believe it or not, the question of the future of the game is very much on the mind of Ken and everybody at Trollhalla. It's come to their attention that they're not getting younger, and that plans need to be made. One: Well, actually, since only product identity is protectable, and mechanics are not, then, so long as there's no 'whole' that makes the game fully, 100% T&T, there's no legal ground to stand on. Without Trollworld, Ralph, Take That You Fiend (as a name), Fang the Delectable, "Warrior-Wizard"s, the experience point table being exactly the same and so on...it's not T&T. (of course it would be, but legally speaking...nope. That is to say, we wouldn't notice it in play at the table if TTYF was called Take That Foul Fiend or Arcane Blast or something or if it took 3,001 APs to reach level 3 or if a broadsword did 3+5.). Two: Yes. That's a possibility, but as I stated in my response to Order, I still think folks would want the 'real deal', and yes, folks are creating stuff, but a clone wouldn't stop that at all. In fact, it may increase it with a larger community because of a possibility of more fans and why? Because it would be more visible and easier to obtain and (as shallow as it may be) there's a lot to be said for a current in-print book that available as a pdf and a softcover and a hardback and has current and active support and (yes, there's Trollhalla and here, but is there an entire webpage and forum dedicated solely to 5th ed?) perhaps even a distribution deal with new, shiny hardbacks on store shelves (with new and attractive and slightly more modern art, even...not that Liz's art is bad...I love it and even people that don't dig on old-school art loves her stuff, but ya know what I mean..). Three: I certainly hope so. Obviously, the 'best case scenario' (only as pertains to a 5th ed. clone), such as it could be 'best', would be for 5th ed. to be abandoned as an in-print product. Then, even if 7.x, 8, WizWar, whatever was in print and sold by another company, it would be effortless to make a 5th ed. clone.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Sept 12, 2009 16:59:41 GMT -5
That's exactly my point-people will usually want the real deal, just as you said. The main strength of OGLs is that they can make a version of a game that CAN'T be acquired through other means, such as dead or OOP products.
Since I can buy a copy of T&T online whenever I need (or used on Ebay or an FLGS I know etc) I don't think we need one. The option will always be there if the game goes OOP(God Forbid) so no worries on that front. T&T 5th is still 'in the running' right now-heck, I can grab a 1st Edition from "that guy" if I want, so technically everything's in print! Being a 4th Edition booster this remains good news for me... ;D
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Post by feldrik on Sept 12, 2009 17:50:35 GMT -5
There are versions of the rules free on line as well. They are somewhat abridged but it is real 5e.
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Post by jongjungbu on Sept 12, 2009 18:21:10 GMT -5
Yeah, in fact, I just acquired a new print copy of 5.5 rules from Paizo.com. Ahh the smell of fresh parchment! And it's the real deal, and that is what I wanted. So i'll agree with that much anyway. (Though I didn't acquire it for functionality, which I think is what this thread is intending.)
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