machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 16, 2009 5:00:42 GMT -5
Exactly. Just as Aramis said. Some are intentionally as close as you can legally get to the original, others are new takes on the old concept or idea. Basic Fantasy kinda brings Basic/Expert D&D a bit into the d20 realm, whereas Labyrinth Lord is also a clone of B/X, but cuts much, much closer, being about 97% the same as the original in mechanics. The original intent was as a clever way to allow for legal publishing of D&D adventures and supplements. This way, the folks who wrote and published such materials could reference the mechanics and monsters and spells and so forth as well as put "Fully compatible with OSRIC" on the cover, which would mean, of course, that it was fully compatible with AD&D First Edition (since OSRIC is a clone of AD&D1E). But it wasn't long at all (mere months, really) before people realized that these games were perfectly playable in and of themselves. In fact, if I ever run a B/X game again, it won't be with the original Basic and Expert D&D books from 1981, but rather with Labyrinth Lord, and I'll still be playing D&D. Plus, instead of two softcover books, it's all compiled together in one and a hardback to boot! ;D The retro-clones have become increasingly popular and a couple have been and are going into regular distribution. The popularity of these games has in turn led to quite a surge in creative endeavors (in fact, I don't recall ever seeing the classic D&D community so excited and putting out so much stuff in my life), much of it of great quality, and much of it for free, and what isn't free is well worth the price. All of this has led also to the so-called OSR or Old-School Renaissance that's grown and grown over the last couple of years. Each of the most popular clones have their own forums that are every bit as active, if not more so, than the 'Bridge. There have been a lot of adventures published. A handful of folks have taken the core rules of these games and in turn released their own versions ( Ruins & Ronin, an Oriental fantasy take on D&D, based on the core of Swords & Wizardry, an Original D&D clone, and Engines & Empires, based on Labyrinth Lord as a sort of 'gaslight' steampunk-ish take on D&D just to name two). There are two old-school magazines that cater to the old-school in general and the clones: Fight On! and Knockspell. Heck, most issues of Fight On! are supplements themselves (issue 3, for example was 150 pages (!!! ) and issue 4 was 122 pages!) Heck, Labyrinth Lord even has a full German translation. Most importantly, since all of these game have their own pretty open OGLs, and the with the pdfs totally free, these games, and thus old-school D&D (since that's essentially what they are) will be available for forever no matter who does what to the original brand name. Lesson? Dungeons & Dragons - Kicking T&T's a** even in the afterlife. Now, I love D&D...but this is a shame and an opportunity (for T&T) wasted. Sorta embarrassing, really.
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Sept 16, 2009 6:47:47 GMT -5
I have had a bit of a change of heart about cloning and OGL. Yesterday I thought o myself "why go to all the work of producing a clone when the originals are available as pdf downloads?" Then I surfed DTRPG, RPGnow and Wizards looking for them. The PDFs that I remember clearly OD&D, Cyclopedia etc, and did not buy because I had originals were gone from the web.
This got me thinking. FBI, OP, and the Trollgod are all esentially one man shows. Fiery Dragon may be more than just Jason, but it still is small. It wouldn't take much and boom the pdf versions of 7.0 and 7.5 dissapear, the print versions of 5.5 become unavailable, OP no longer prints and sells anything, suddenly all we would be left with is the free quick start rules. Those at least ae widely diseminated.
Now I realize just how vulnerabe T&T is. The D&D clones o a long way to protecing Old School D&D, but what about T&T?
I also think that T&T will have better odds of survival if more people publish more stuff for the game. For years my perception was T&T is the 5.0 rulebook and solos. I had no clue that OP even existed. It semd T&T was pretty much a comatose game. You had to go to FBI to get it, and they looked like they were trying to liquidate old stock.
The best thing for T&T is more stuff like "the Trolls Companion" even though it is a lot crunchier than I like my T&T it is new T&T stuff on DTRPG. It shows that the game lives.
Buying the Delver's Pack, recycled material though it may be, at least sends the message to FD that there is still a market for T&T.
Now I love 7e T&T and think it has some great additions to the game, it also has a few head scratchers, but if I write a publishable, saleable T&T product I may very well do so based on the free quick start rules. Those are the closest thing we have to a T&T SRD, and adding in concepts like spite and specal damae can be handled pretty easilly without violating copyright. The nice thing bout T&T is that the core rules and mechanisms have remained stable, allowing for fairly broad cross compatability.
So with the quick start as my "SRD" I think I can see my way forward to a publishable implementation of T&T that will even be setting specific. Call it a test of theory on T&T cloning and OGL.
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Post by jongjungbu on Sept 16, 2009 8:20:15 GMT -5
Yep, they WOTC or some such wanted them PDFS bye-bye. I was fortunate enough to get in and buy some a number of them before they went *poof*. And I thought the very same thing, hrrrothgarr, thought I didn't vocalize it...that the PDFs were gonna vanish for those T&T Solo adventures on DTRPG. And that's why I didn't hesitate to buy all of them even though I had them in print. I can proliferate my own copies of the PDFs on my own computers, legitimately, and have them until the day I die basically (and my kids). But, I will say I haven't been keeping up with classic roleplaying via the internet until quite recent. I mean, community wise, and such. Sure, I have copies of 4E D&D manuals and materials, but you can become aware of such things just on the Wizards website. So, thanks, machfront, for enlightening me on all of this classic D&D clones. I loved and had and played Basic D&D, AD&D, and still have 1st ed manuals as my preferred D&D. I don't play it, I have no one in my circle who wants to play those anymore, especially these days with 2nd, 3rd, 4th, eds. But I have fond memories of flipping through those 1st Ed manuals looking for just the right Arch-Devil to "influence" the evil that I was propagating in the adventure. And I'm glad I have them in PDF too when I was still able to buy them. I recently flipped through the files when we talked about spending cash (and I mentioned strongholds), in grrraall's thread.
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Post by ProfGremlin on Sept 16, 2009 9:22:14 GMT -5
So with the quick start as my "SRD" ... I'm curious, I'm aware that the Quickstart / Free RPG Day ruleset is a stripped down version of 5th ed. but has anyone seen a version for 7.x ed. or even the M6E? The reason I ask is that I have the M6E and a few players that I'd like to give the Quickstart rules to but I don't want to confuse new players with the differences between the 5th ed and M6E. That would defeat the purpose of providing them a way to keep their hand in the game even when we're not session'ing. I thought about re-writing the existing Quickstart rules to be M6E specific but I didn't want to step on anyones toes. Any ideas or thoughts on this?
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Post by jongjungbu on Sept 16, 2009 11:50:48 GMT -5
Wow, I never really thought about that ProfGremlin. I think you should go ahead with it and send it in. Or, you could privately share it only with your friends for your group session. I don't think it would be a major issue for the latter.
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Post by ragnorakk on Sept 16, 2009 12:43:07 GMT -5
I thought about re-writing the existing Quickstart rules to be M6E specific but I didn't want to step on anyones toes. Any ideas or thoughts on this? Nobody's toes would be stepped on as long as it's something for personal use.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Sept 17, 2009 0:44:14 GMT -5
Green Ronin publish a version of Freeport for a variety of different systems. I wonder what it would take for them to do a T&T version? If just one slightly higher-profile publisher took an interest in T&T I wonder if others would too?
T&T has a great base of die hard fans. That base alone would be attractive to a publisher (I'm sure) but the base is split between at least 2 camps. Fifth edition that a lot of players grew up with and love, and 7.x edition, the new kid on the block... Need to fix that split methinks...
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 17, 2009 1:27:40 GMT -5
The split is only really relevant to the die-hards, Hogscape. And it's many camps, not 2... 1-4, 5.0 forever, 5.5, M6, and 7.X, MSPE.
The differences between 5 and 7 may seem severe, but really are not. Combat works the same way, WIZ is obvious, and Speed is in 5.0 (buried in an optional rule in the back... rule 2.36). Magic adds SR's to cast. Pick one side and stat for it. Either 5.5 or 7.5 stats... and make a note that, while the stats may be unusually high/low for the other, it's not a major issue. Adding T&T Stats for 7.5 is going to take about 3 lines per NPC, and either 1/3, 1 or 4 lines per monster.
From what I've heard, advancement is different in M6, so the stats will be much lower for high level characters... more akin to MSPE... when I can afford it, I shall get it.
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Sept 17, 2009 6:28:55 GMT -5
I have seen solos with a quick conversion note. Pretty much an adjustment to MR covers it, with the occasional tweak of SR levels.
Really the standard stuff that most of us, I think, have been doing for years anyway to adjust published scenarios to better suit our groups.
A T&T version of Freeport would be great. I wonder how much work it would take to produce one, and if GR would be willing to farm it out to one of us?
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Sept 17, 2009 8:24:58 GMT -5
A T&T version of Freeport would be great. I wonder how much work it would take to produce one, and if GR would be willing to farm it out to one of us? GR might be happy to produce it if they knew how many trolls would buy it... Petition?
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 17, 2009 9:56:37 GMT -5
I'm not buying settings. I prefer to grow them myself. It's why I spent money on CC2/CC3! (now if only it would run in WINE instead of just in Parallels...)
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Post by ProfGremlin on Sept 17, 2009 10:11:46 GMT -5
(now if only it would run in WINE instead of just in Parallels...) Ah... ::nods sagiciously:: Did you install the CHEEZ plugin? ::ducks & covers:: ;D
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koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
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Post by koraq on Sept 20, 2009 15:07:21 GMT -5
I followed the discussion on Trollhalla about OGL. While I think Rick is dead wrong, I also think Machfront is overvaluing the retro clones. I wonder if they are such a smashing success, really. How many new gamers have they brought in? That being said, there's not doubt in my mind that it would be possible to make T&T far more visible, and that some support program from either Rick or FDG would make a difference. In real life it's easy to get Rick's blessing to publishing stuff. I think one reason "that company" has a lock on it right now is that actually POD some books takes some effort and it's easier to send stuff to Jim than to start that process yourself. One thing that could be done, all talk of clones aside, is to go back and read that thread about grass roots support of T&T. I haven't seem much of that actually happening! I do what I can to hang out with my OSR friends, and talk about T&T on my blog ( theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com). I have even gotten some stuff published in Green Devil Face which explicitly mentions me using it in T&T. GDF is on sale on Noble Knight Games and thus even off-line gamers can read that T&T is played still. What am I trying to say? That a bunch of blogs with T&T stuff, visibility on general forums like ENworld and rpg.net and that kind of activity probably must be ramped up before any talk of a retro clone of T&T even makes sense.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 20, 2009 15:43:24 GMT -5
I probably am overvaluing it a bit, but I'm given to hyperbole.
However, I can say I've witnessed many stories on forums and blogs of new players and new gamers being brought in via the clones. Heck, new folks join the Goblinoid Games and Mythmere Games forums every couple of months that are new to most of it (either haven't played at all since '85 or only played D&D 3.5 for a short while or were just talking to a friend about what in the heck all this rpg stuff is about, etc.).
I guess what it boils down to is that increased visibility very well could (I personally think, would) increase the number of already existing gamers interested in T&T. If that number increases, the creativity and so forth increases. After those aforementioned things, then I'd see it as highly likely that there would be not just new players of T&T, but new gamers as well.
I don't have a (game-oriented) blog, but I pimp T&T any reasonable chance I get, both online and in real life.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Sept 21, 2009 4:25:45 GMT -5
I'm not buying settings. I prefer to grow them myself. It's why I spent money on CC2/CC3! (now if only it would run in WINE instead of just in Parallels...) Care to share some of those maps/settings?
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